Should Oolite have a financial system?

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Wildeblood
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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Wildeblood »

Zireael wrote:
An alternative might be to start the player somewhere that's already a little nicer. (I don't view "Lave is the only world which trains pilots / issues pilot licenses" as remotely plausible, and the option to start at Lave wouldn't go anywhere).
The suggested systems included Oresle (TL 11), Arzaso (TL 10) and Maxeedso (TL 7).
Ya know, when alternative start locations like those are discussed, there's no reason to limit consideration to chart 1. Start in the Rift Worlds, I say.

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Zireael »

Wildeblood wrote:
Zireael wrote:
An alternative might be to start the player somewhere that's already a little nicer. (I don't view "Lave is the only world which trains pilots / issues pilot licenses" as remotely plausible, and the option to start at Lave wouldn't go anywhere).
The suggested systems included Oresle (TL 11), Arzaso (TL 10) and Maxeedso (TL 7).
Ya know, when alternative start locations like those are discussed, there's no reason to limit consideration to chart 1. Start in the Rift Worlds, I say.
Any suggestions outside of chart 1, then?

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Disembodied »

Wildeblood wrote:A better way to plug that hole would be to not have fuel the cheapest of all commodities.
Unfortunately, I don't think it would - not without starting the player off with more money. Otherwise a beginning player won't be able to make enough profit on their first run to buy enough fuel to make a second one. And if they get more money, then they can instantly start making more profit by buying more profitable goods ... It could be done but would require a top-to-bottom rewrite of all commodity prices and profitability.

The central problem with starting the player in any ship slower than a Cobra III would be the perpetual masslocking. Dump the torus, get a functioning TAF, and then all sorts of starting options become viable (the logical one being, the player starts in an Adder, as the smallest hyperspace-capable cargo ship). Then we could figure out how much profit people can make with what sorts of ships, and how much a new ship would cost. Until the masslock issue is sorted, though, a non-Cobra III start is for dedicated enthusiasts only.

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by metatheurgist »

Zireael wrote:Now that I think of it, a debt at game start would explain how the player got that shiny Cobra...

Because I get that it's TRADITION, but it makes no sense in-universe.
It's been a long time since I read the manuals but I believe Jameson gets his Cobra (and his aspirations to roam the galaxy) from his uncle, who filled his head with stories as a child and left him his ship when he died.

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Malacandra »

metatheurgist wrote:
Zireael wrote:Now that I think of it, a debt at game start would explain how the player got that shiny Cobra...

Because I get that it's TRADITION, but it makes no sense in-universe.
It's been a long time since I read the manuals but I believe Jameson gets his Cobra (and his aspirations to roam the galaxy) from his uncle, who filled his head with stories as a child and left him his ship when he died.
I also think it would make sense for trade associations to sponsor ships - because they want to encourage interstellar haulage for the sake of the galactic economy - and new traders are chosen by aptitude test or by lottery. This only works in a universe in which a journey of a few light-years takes a day and costs less than a ton of iron ore, but hey.
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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Diziet Sma »

Malacandra wrote:I also think it would make sense for trade associations to sponsor ships - because they want to encourage interstellar haulage for the sake of the galactic economy - and new traders are chosen by aptitude test or by lottery. This only works in a universe in which a journey of a few light-years takes a day and costs less than a ton of iron ore, but hey.
I don't see how this could really work.. I regard the concept as the only weak point in your most excellent story, in fact. The cost, in terms of ships destroyed and pilot training wasted, of those lost before they've made even a dozen runs, would be prohibitive.. The overall Return On Investment would be so low that it would take the survivors years of work before the TAs saw a profit on their sponsorships.. if ever.
Last edited by Diziet Sma on Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Pleb »

Wildeblood wrote:Ya know, when alternative start locations like those are discussed, there's no reason to limit consideration to chart 1. Start in the Rift Worlds, I say.
The only problem with this is that the core missions assume you start in galactic sector 1. So if you started anywhere else this might cause issues...

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Malacandra »

Diziet Sma wrote:
Malacandra wrote:I also think it would make sense for trade associations to sponsor ships - because they want to encourage interstellar haulage for the sake of the galactic economy - and new traders are chosen by aptitude test or by lottery. This only works in a universe in which a journey of a few light-years takes a day and costs less than a ton of iron ore, but hey.
I don't see how this could really work.. I regard the concept as the only weak point in your most excellent story, in fact. The cost, in terms of ships destroyed and pilot training wasted, of those lost before they've made even a dozen runs, would be prohibitive.. The overall Return On Investment would be so low that it would take the survivors years of work before the TAs saw a profit on their sponsorships.. if ever.
Surely the same problem exists no matter what the source of ships for new Jamesons, though - not to mention the insurance deal that comes with Escape Pods. Having worked in the industry, I can tell you no-one would be underwriting a policy for which the premium is whatever part of the 1000cr isn't the capital cost of the hardware, and which will pay out the cost of a new Cobra III plus any after-market extras, unless the odds were something like a thousand to one against its ever being used. :lol:

I think we might as well assume that PCs, here and in other games, are cursed to live in interesting times. Be careful of holding up the Ooniverse to too close inspection - it's also illogical that pirates should be able to eke out enough of a living in scooped TCs of food and minerals to replace all those Kraits, Sidies and Geckos they keep losing.
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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Diziet Sma »

Fair points.. :wink:
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Zireael »

Be careful of holding up the Ooniverse to too close inspection - it's also illogical that pirates should be able to eke out enough of a living in scooped TCs of food and minerals to replace all those Kraits, Sidies and Geckos they keep losing.
I always thought they had only one ship, and died or got lost in space when it exploded. Only the lucky few had an escape pod and most were lacking even an Remlock. However, the scooped TCs of food and minerals meant that their families and friends planetside saw them as heroes - maybe the home village is on the edge of starvation or something.

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Pleb »

Zireael wrote:I always thought they had only one ship, and died or got lost in space when it exploded. Only the lucky few had an escape pod and most were lacking even an Remlock. However, the scooped TCs of food and minerals meant that their families and friends planetside saw them as heroes - maybe the home village is on the edge of starvation or something.
I like how you've put a back story to this, Zireael! :lol:

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Malacandra »

Zireael wrote:
Be careful of holding up the Ooniverse to too close inspection - it's also illogical that pirates should be able to eke out enough of a living in scooped TCs of food and minerals to replace all those Kraits, Sidies and Geckos they keep losing.
I always thought they had only one ship, and died or got lost in space when it exploded. Only the lucky few had an escape pod and most were lacking even an Remlock. However, the scooped TCs of food and minerals meant that their families and friends planetside saw them as heroes - maybe the home village is on the edge of starvation or something.
A starving village can afford to put a 200 kCr ship into space...? :lol:
"Sidewinder Precision Pro" and other Oolite fiction is now available for Amazon Kindle at a bargain price.

Sidewinder Precision Pro ||Claymore Mine ||The Russian Creed ||One Jump Ahead

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Zireael »

Malacandra wrote:
Zireael wrote:
Be careful of holding up the Ooniverse to too close inspection - it's also illogical that pirates should be able to eke out enough of a living in scooped TCs of food and minerals to replace all those Kraits, Sidies and Geckos they keep losing.
I always thought they had only one ship, and died or got lost in space when it exploded. Only the lucky few had an escape pod and most were lacking even an Remlock. However, the scooped TCs of food and minerals meant that their families and friends planetside saw them as heroes - maybe the home village is on the edge of starvation or something.
A starving village can afford to put a 200 kCr ship into space...? :lol:
A Krait isn't 200k Cr, and I guess they either chipped in for those 30k or the guy stole it.

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by Malacandra »

Zireael wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
Zireael wrote: I always thought they had only one ship, and died or got lost in space when it exploded. Only the lucky few had an escape pod and most were lacking even an Remlock. However, the scooped TCs of food and minerals meant that their families and friends planetside saw them as heroes - maybe the home village is on the edge of starvation or something.
A starving village can afford to put a 200 kCr ship into space...? :lol:
A Krait isn't 200k Cr, and I guess they either chipped in for those 30k or the guy stole it.
A ship that does cost 200 kCr (a Python) can carry a bigger fraction of its value in cargo than a Krait can, but it's all one anyway. If you can afford to buy even a Krait - or steal one and fence it - you can buy thousands of TCs of food for your starving village, or alternatively invest in a lot of hi-tech farm machinery that should let you eke out a living even on an inhospitable world.

Basically the idea of piracy for profit is fundamentally broken because the value of any ship's cargo is insignificant next to the capital cost of the ship. This wasn't the case back in the days when piracy could pay - when speculators could back a hazardous trip to the East Indies for spices and silk knowing that the real risk of a total loss was more than balanced by the gigantic profits if the ship made it back OK. That was why King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were willing to punt the cost of three ships for Columbus's mad schemes (and it was mad; he was completely wrong about how far it was to India and was saved by the fortunate circumstance of a continent at the limit of his sailing range that stretched almost from Pole to Pole).
"Sidewinder Precision Pro" and other Oolite fiction is now available for Amazon Kindle at a bargain price.

Sidewinder Precision Pro ||Claymore Mine ||The Russian Creed ||One Jump Ahead

All titles also available in paperback.

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Re: Should Oolite have a financial system?

Post by cim »

Malacandra wrote:Basically the idea of piracy for profit is fundamentally broken because the value of any ship's cargo is insignificant next to the capital cost of the ship.
My guideline for this is to divide the in-game cost of the ship by 100 (or more). A decent ship will pay for itself in a few good trips, and then you'll be rich (but more likely dead); meanwhile light fighters and third-hand scraps/salvage can probably be picked up for a few hundred (most of which is the pulse laser).

It also explains things like:
- why you get pirate groups of three light fighters with pulse lasers, as opposed to two light fighters with military shields and lasers; also, why hardly anyone carries hardheads.
- why the escape pod only costs 1000: it's mostly premium, not equipment; they expect a fair number of successful claims; it costs most of the price of an unequipped ship. Equipment insured for free is actually a fairly shrewd deal: anyone who can actually afford that equipment probably won't need to use the pod very often. (Cargo not insured is the same idea: for most of the people using the pods the cargo costs more than the ship)
- why most of the combat potential of a ship is in its equipment

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