Insane attack levels

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by SteveKing » Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:36 pm

Alex wrote:Hi RockDoctor,
You may have noticed that this is Oolite, the game that some say give you swimming lessons in the deep blue and stuff some rocks in your pockets to help you along... Enjoy and feel free to complain to the managment about your last demise.
We all love a good laugh.
Ain't that the truth.

Still, great to see another Geo taking on the ooniverse :D
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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:06 am

May I add some points here. The main problem is that 6 pirates may hit you these days with 18 lasers at once. Even tiny ships will turn my Dark Rainbow into dust before I can even realize from which direction they are smoldering my brain. In return I have my 3 artillery canons and turrets. These are fine but not everybody runs this maximum ship with maximum weapons like I do which means that you are doomed unless you go maximum defense, pay your tribute or inject. Which adds up to some major amount of frustration if you think about. You get either robbed or pussied out every few systems - by default - because there is no chance you can survive an pirate pack by actually attacking them as we made clear by now. Since ALL missiles are useless - and I mean ALL of them ! - and the quirium mine is also more or less a joke since they ALL know even faster than yourself when you launch your quirium mine and scatter across the galaxy before it has any effect there is nothing you can do. Unless you run an Andromeda: then you can simply RAM them.

I repeat once more: the far BEST and most effective weapon in this entire game is the Andromeda RAMMING maneuver. Oolite is in other words a kamikaze car driving arcade. Is this how this game is meant to be: that RAMMING ships is the best way to win? With triple base cannons at hand? Yet RAMMING is still 1200% percent more effective?

The main problem are the ship production numbers: I face mostly 8 and 9s by now. Which means that I have to DOUBLE EMPTY my triple (!) artillery canon into a gnat up to overheating until I finally have it to explode. This takes 3 minutes of FULL triple POWER firing. The alternative is is simple: I RAM it once with my Andromeda. Done. You should rename the game in "Stock Car Crash games in space - lasers are useless - use your SHIP's HULL to win!"

Look, I would really love to fairly dogfight through those packs of pirates but without any - ANY - working weapon this is no longer fun and far, far from being remotely realistic. Since the pirates have the 0.1 seconds reaction time in case you 1) fire a missile 2) launch a quirium 3) get them to "damaged" and they work perfectly together as a swarm with 18-20 up to 30 lasers firing at you at the same time this is simply a brutal game. A game made to make the player feel weak, angry, frustrated, lonely and under armed. I am not willing to buy me a joystick, pad or anything like this as long as it takes 3 minutes to explode a mamba with 3 artillery canons point blank after it is already derelict. You get my point? In dogfights you have to deliver 30,40 hits if you have the biggest weapons. Which takes 10 minutes, at least- unless the pirate doesn't INJECT into space once you brought him to "damaged" for 10 seconds. I told you all of this. Sometimes I feel like Ooliote is meant to be a game of ZENmeditation. "Learn to tolerate frustration, just let it all go - no matter how good you are, how big your ship is and how powerful your weapon is. You won't have a chance so RELAX and let it all happen".

In my dream recently my Andromeda had 3 big plasma converters. You remember those big bad ass thinggys from elite? One giant, blue, evil beam of pure energy. In my dram I hit 4 pirates with one fire from 12 kilometers distance. They blew up in one HUGE asteroid explosion fireball - as if their damn level 9 ships where some ants in space. In that dream my hard 2 years of trading finally made sense because I knew I had one amazing ship with some fearful weapons in it. It was amazing.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by Bogatyr » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:30 am

I was ambushed at the Ensoreus witchpoint by a huge flock of pirates at a junkyard Python start yesterday. Ararus is nearby, it's a dodgy neighborhood.

In my (so far successful) ironman Broke Adder start I had a vs. 2 dogfight that went on forever against a Fer de Lance that seemed like it had military shields and IronHide armor. I held a steady beam laser against that thing for EVER before it finally started taking damage. I do not have any explicit "hard NPC" OXPs or ship-specific OXPs but do have a long list (below).

I have noticed that survivability once you enter a fight seems a bit more likely in v1.82.

oolite.oxp.Aegidean.CompactHUD.oxz
oolite.oxp.AndreyBelov.BountyInformer.oxz
oolite.oxp.AndreyBelov.DuplexFuelTank.oxz
oolite.oxp.AndreyBelov.Targeter.oxz
oolite.oxp.captkev.fighter_hud2.oxz
oolite.oxp.CaptMurphy.EscortContracts.oxz
oolite.oxp.CaptMurphy.PoliceIFFScanner.oxz
oolite.oxp.cim.comms-pack-a.oxz
oolite.oxp.Commander_McLane.Randomshipnames.oxz
oolite.oxp.CommonSenseOTB.ShieldEqualizer+Capacitors.oxz
oolite.oxp.Diagoras.MiningContracts.oxz
oolite.oxp.Diziet.Q-Bomb-Detector.oxz
oolite.oxp.DrNil.Commies.oxz
oolite.oxp.DrNil.YAH-SetA.oxz
oolite.oxp.DrNil.YAH.oxz
oolite.oxp.EricWalch.DeepSpaceDredger.oxz
oolite.oxp.EricWalch.TionislaReporter.oxz
oolite.oxp.EricWalch.UPSCourier.oxz
oolite.oxp.FritzG.Synchronised_Torus.oxz
oolite.oxp.jh145.ScannerAlertingEnhancement.oxz
oolite.oxp.littlebear.blackmonks.oxz
oolite.oxp.Murgh.MilitaryFiasco.oxz
oolite.oxp.Neelix.VacuumPump.oxz
oolite.oxp.Neelix.WaypointHere.oxz
oolite.oxp.Norby.CombatMFD.oxz
oolite.oxp.Norby.HUDSelector.oxz
oolite.oxp.Norby.Planetfall_Markets.oxz
oolite.oxp.Norby.SellAll.oxz
oolite.oxp.Norby.TheCollector.oxz
oolite.oxp.Norby.TorusToSun.oxz
oolite.oxp.Okti.CargoScanner.oxz
oolite.oxp.phkb.CommsLogMFD.oxz
oolite.oxp.phkb.DamageReportMFD.oxz
oolite.oxp.phkb.LMSS.oxz
oolite.oxp.phkb.MFDFastConfiguration.oxz
oolite.oxp.Pleb.TaxiGalactica.oxz
oolite.oxp.Ramirez.Dictators.oxz
oolite.oxp.Ramirez.FeudalStates.oxz
oolite.oxp.Ramirez.FuelTank.oxz
oolite.oxp.RobertTodd.Taranis.oxz
oolite.oxp.smivs.ExtraFuelTanks.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.audible_docking_clearance.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.glare_filter.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.in-system_taxi.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.market_inquirer.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.market_observer.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.ore_processor.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.random_hits.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.rescue_stations.oxz
oolite.oxp.spara.start_choices.oxz
oolite.oxp.stormrider.manifestScanner.oxz
oolite.oxp.superbatprime.Ship's_Cat.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.CargoShepherd.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.CargoSpotter.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.IronHide.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.MilFuelInj.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.NavalGrid.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.PlanetaryCompass.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.Planetfall.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.RepairBots.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.TAP.oxz
oolite.oxp.Thargoid.Tracker.oxz
oolite.oxp.Wildeblood.Display_Reputation.oxz

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by phkb » Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:03 am

For the sake of understanding why you're experiencing high levels of frustration, are you able to list the OXP's you are using. It's certainly possibly one or two of them might be contributing to the numbers of pirates you're seeing. (One question - 6 pirates usually means 6 lasers. Only OXP ships have 2 lasers mounted up front (Cat Mark 2 and Iguana if I recall correctly), both of which are OXP ships, and both of which are known to be a real pain to deal with regardless of what ship you're flying.)

FWIW, I'm using over two hundred OXP's, and I'm flying a standard Iron-Assed Cobra Mark III. Just yesterday I was jumped by 8 pirates and managed to kill them all. I am, however, using a joystick (a Logitech F310... cheapest new joystick I could find!). My tactics are to inject into the middle or the rear of the pack, making sure they stay as bunched up as possible. Then I start picking off ships. In close quarters the pirates can struggle to get a hit on you if you make sure you don't fly in a straight line for too long, and watch out for ships that have a rear laser mounted. I find some pirates tend to fly straight when you're attacking from the rear, meaning you need to watch your 6 and start moving around to stop your rear shield from being shredded.

I find ECM missiles can be useful for two things. First, they can finish off ships that don't have injectors. Second, if I need to reduce the number of ships I'm dealing with, I can target a ship I know will probably have injectors (eg most Asp's), and then fire an ECM missile at them. They will quickly inject away, giving me more time to deal with the other ship before the Asp returns to the fight. It's still possible to hit ships that have injectors with ECM's, but you need to be quite close behind them.

Bad things to do: go head to head with ships that have missiles (FdLs, Asps, Pythons, even Adders). If you start laying into them with your laser it's quite likely they will fire a missile at you pretty much point blank. Always get behind a ship before you start dismembering them.

[shameless plug mode-on]You could also try using Broadcast Comms MFD. This OXP gives you the opportunity to try and bribe your way out of a battle.[shameless plug mode-off]

I can't say I've tried flying an Andromeda before. I've loaded one up for testing my OXP's, but haven't tried it in combat so I don't know what it's maneuverability is like. From the Wiki I imagine it's more towards the "slow and ponderous" end of the scale rather than the "can turn on a dime" end. Tactics when flying slow ships are different, so perhaps someone with more experience with large ships can chime in with their thoughts.

Edit: Also, can you describe the config of your Andromeda? ie What lasers you're using, what equipment you have installed, that sort of thing.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:45 am

Hello phkb! Thank you for your nice help.
1) "ships that don't have injectors." - are not the problem so much - at least you CAN kill them eventually. I have the problem that NPCs seem to have unlimited injector fuel at hand. This must be changed, please.
2) Missiles CAN be helpful at 10% but they generally lack the so much needed power and efficiency a human player needs to stand against pirates. Missiles need to be 5x faster at least also considering the flawless NPC tactics to outmaneuver them.

"From the Wiki I imagine it's more towards the "slow and ponderous" end of the scale rather than the "can turn on a dime" end. Tactics when flying slow ships are different, so perhaps someone with more experience with large ships can chime in with their thoughts."

Yes, I have my other topic going named "The pain of flying an Andromeda or any other large ship" - the disadvantaged of flying a big ship from boa on is so significant that it is absolutely useless to buy a big ship. You are a big whale in space. Multiple lasers can only slightly improve the situation since You still can't catch the fast, tiny ships with the EQUAL weapon power as you have with your 2000 times bigger ship. This game is made for small ship dogfight players. Sadly. No Titan-Ship epic fights possible. So far. It might change one day.

---> One problem is that the ÜBER-lasers or Artillery canons still have the EXACT same targeting problems like a 1mw beam laser. You have to target ABSOLUTELY perfectly to hit. It would be better if the bigger lasers have simply bigger STREAMS of energy that can hit larger areas of pirate ships. I can't find the right words...I mean: the "direct perfect hit" area of big ass lasers, canons, plasmas MUST be larger. This would also balance the disadvantage of having big ships: you hit easier, more often and deadlier.

"Also, can you describe the config of your Andromeda? ie What lasers you're using, what equipment you have installed, that sort of thing."

I have my Andromeda maxed out with LF Base Artillery canon. 200 HP per second. Which means you still have to hit 10 times to kill a moderately good NPC - you can see the problem? Since you CANT hit a good npc 10 times with an Andromeda, or Anaconda, or Dark Rainbow that weapon is more or less useless against pirate packs. Best weapon: RAMMING. Nothing else.

Ok, I am exaggerate: I can surviving most fights. Of course! With 8,10, 14 energy banks and maxed our armor it is no problem since I can always inject away. But HATE HATE HATE to flee from tiny ships with a 2.3 million tons 2 kilometer large ship from tiny pirates. You get my point? By now I am flying a Dark Rainbow where the 10 turrets help a lot.

I also flew a War Lance for a long time - a nicely balanced ship.

What I wish:
- An multiple GOOD laser Andromeda with buyable shield generators that can handle pirates and will sometimes be attacked by other equally large pirate ships in space. Also good missiles.

PS: A grizzly won't have to flee if it was attacked by 10 tiny, angry squirrels.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by Disembodied » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:01 pm

DrunkenPalpatine wrote:PS: A grizzly won't have to flee if it was attacked by 10 tiny, angry squirrels.
No, but an aircraft carrier can be sunk by ten aeroplanes.

If you want a giant, super-powerful ship to be nimble and hard to hit as well, there may be problems. Oolite is a small-ship game: any attempt to add player-flyable capital ships is going to face severe difficulties - especially since the NPC AI got upgraded, and enemies no longer sit obligingly still while the player shoots them.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:09 pm

Disembodied wrote:
DrunkenPalpatine wrote:PS: A grizzly won't have to flee if it was attacked by 10 tiny, angry squirrels.
No, but an aircraft carrier can be sunk by ten aeroplanes.

If you want a giant, super-powerful ship to be nimble and hard to hit as well, there may be problems. Oolite is a small-ship game: any attempt to add player-flyable capital ships is going to face severe difficulties - especially since the NPC AI got upgraded, and enemies no longer sit obligingly still while the player shoots them.
Nono, I am perfectly happy with the Andormedclass size!
And the idea to use trading ships that embark from your Andromeda is maybe the best idea EVER in this game. I love how they fly to the stations.

I think it is no problem to make this a well balanced big ship fighting game as well if you make it possible that the AI can also use Andromedas to attack you. Or Liners. Or Titans we still need to develop. And pirate packs will certainly no longer try to attack my Andromeda unless they are 20+ ships which will be fine then once I have my GOOD useful lasers, good useful missiles and buyable Shiled generators. JUST LET THEM GET TO ME!

EDIT: those Titan pirates won't even bother to attack your adder, Cobra or whatever. It is not worth the fight. So we could block the big pirates for the big player ships.

PS: the Airplane vs. Battle Ship (Yamato-Class) picture is not valid since we have ships vs. ships. And 10 destroyers would not sink the Yamato. 10 destroyers vs. the Yamato is EXACTLY the picture we need to talk about!!!! This is what I am talking about: 9 Übersize cannons. 30 Middle size cannons. Massive armor. On the other side 10 or 20 destroyers.
THIS would be the battle I would love to see.

So far Oolite has the Yamato with ONE canon equal to the canons of the destroyers!
Airplanes are rather Thargoid attacks in another dimension.

I am willing to die a death of glory against 40+ or 20+ pirates if the fight was a beautiful fight worth to remember not this "dead whale in space" kind of stuff we now have.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by Disembodied » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:33 pm

DrunkenPalpatine wrote:I think it is no problem to make this a well balanced big ship fighting game as well [...]
I'm not a programmer, but I suspect it might be difficult. An aircraft carrier protects itself from attack by enemy aircraft by 1) having its own defensive fighter screen; 2) having lots of anti-aircraft guns; 3) having a wider screen of escort ships, also armed with anti-aircraft guns, missiles etc. Without this, any big ship is going to be vulnerable to lots of little ones. You'd need to code in player-escort ships, to help fend off attacking enemies, and boost the power (and the intelligence) of automatic defences like the plasma turrets - at which point, you're not really playing the game, you're watching the game play itself.

The only non-escort option I can think of is to make the big ships' shields so hugely powerful that little ships' attacks would just bounce off (you'd need to rewrite the little ship AI so they know that their attacks are useless, though - then they'd just run away). Then you could have big battleships moving ponderously around the place, exchanging shots with great big weapons, powerful enough to damage each other. Except that all you've got then is slow-motion dogfighting, with massive shields and massive weapons.
DrunkenPalpatine wrote:PS: the Airplane vs. Battle Ship (Yamato-Class) picture is not valid since we have ships vs. ships. And 10 destroyers would not sink the Yamato. 10 destroyers vs. the Yamato is EXACTLY the picture we need to talk about!!!! This is what I am talking about: 9 Übersize cannons. 30 Middle size cannons. Massive armor. On the other side 10 or 20 destroyers.
THIS would be the battle I would love to see.
OK, so what this needs is: huge shields on the giant ships; amendments to small-ship AI, so they don't attack the giant ships; special giant ship AI, so they ignore the small ships; a new class of middle-sized ships (the Destroyers, in your example - because at the moment, the core game ships like the Mamba, the Cobra III, the Python etc. aren't Destroyers, they're aircraft) which will attack the giant ships and which can also hold their own against the small ships (which may be a problem - how tough/manoeuvrable/well-armed are these middle-sized ships going to be? Because Destroyers can get sunk by aircraft ...).

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by Cody » Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:39 pm

Up 'scope! Range is... mark! Bearing is... mark! Down 'scope, flood tubes one and two!

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by Stormrider » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:45 pm

Disembodied wrote:Destroyers can get sunk by aircraft
And actually by 80 foot wooden hulled boats as Admiral Tanaka found out.

@DrunkenPalpatine
Perhaps you need to adjust your tactics, if your escorts are running into you and you are ramming ships then it seems to me that you are fighting at much too close quarters for such a large ship. I would suggest that you launch your escorts, captured thargons, and drones before the enemy has a chance to close, then turn and use your aft laser to snipe ships as you draw them towards your screen of protection.
I don't feel that any ship should be invulnerable no matter how large it is. Its really cool to Luke Skywalker a Deathstar. :D
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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:47 pm

Stormrider wrote:
Disembodied wrote:Destroyers can get sunk by aircraft
And actually by 80 foot wooden hulled boats as Admiral Tanaka found out.

@DrunkenPalpatine
Perhaps you need to adjust your tactics, if your escorts are running into you and you are ramming ships then it seems to me that you are fighting at much too close quarters for such a large ship. I would suggest that you launch your escorts, captured thargons, and drones before the enemy has a chance to close, then turn and use your aft laser to snipe ships as you draw them towards your screen of protection.
I don't feel that any ship should be invulnerable no matter how large it is. Its really cool to Luke Skywalker a Deathstar. :D
Thank you very much dear Stormrider. I find it amazing how you all try to help me. And have no fear because I have so much fun playing the game. If i want I can avoid any troubles with my big ships. Consider me rather as spoiled child that wants his toy to function the way HE wants it to function. As I said in my very fist post somewhere: this is your game, your project. And if you want it to be a game where tiny ships can compete with 2000 times larger ones then I have to deal with it. And if the lasers are tiny the missiles are useless and everything HAS to stay like it is then I have to use tactics to avoid the massive pure disadvantages big ships have. Which means: not buying anything bigger than a cobra.
I would just like to add that new ways, new ideas might make the game better more fun and even more challenging than it is is now.
And lets point out one thing: Luke Skywalking a Deathstar was only possible because some complete IDIOT forgot to hire a system analyst to check all 2 meter large exhaust ports the size of a womp rat.
Yet the Bismark had a deadly torpedo hit on the rudder. It may happen. Sure. Nevertheless the AVERAGE fight should be Bigger is better. Maybe I can help you all to understanding how I feel when I write a little story about how the game should FEEL.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:07 pm

Disembodied wrote:OK, so what this needs is: huge shields on the giant ships; amendments to small-ship AI, so they don't attack the giant ships; special giant ship AI, so they ignore the small ships; a new class of middle-sized ships (the Destroyers, in your example - because at the moment, the core game ships like the Mamba, the Cobra III, the Python etc. aren't Destroyers, they're aircraft) which will attack the giant ships and which can also hold their own against the small ships (which may be a problem - how tough/manoeuvrable/well-armed are these middle-sized ships going to be? Because Destroyers can get sunk by aircraft ...).
May I add that the big ships should NEED to decide what they want in regards of either a big bad ass laser (multiple laser system, too?) OR a lot of shields. Or nothing of that and only cargo space!
This could be archived by deploying the "every equipment should use up cargo space". You want the fat bad 600 HP per second laser? Fine, it will cost you 300.000 and 600 cargospace. You can even buy 3 or 4 small lasers in addition...which will also add more cargo consumption so that your shields will be basic.
---> Thus every ship should have the basic shields (which are pretty weak) and optional shield generators. So if you dare and want to take a risk for the "once in a lifetime" trade of those very very rare Thargoid artworks (an oxp I still have to develop) then you can sell even the basic shield and go naked with 100 cargo extra.

So make it a DECISION by the player how he wants to move through space. The ship should be like a character in an adventure: You want armor? Fine, get some! But then you won't be able to use that bad ass axe! Or visa verse.

I would like to add that the motivation of attacking huge Titan ships as a Big ship player could be that the REWARDS for killing those Über-Pirates should be considerably bigger. There should be amazing loot. Or amazing rewards moneywise. 30.000 credits for that Andromeda Pirate. Why should I ever attack those tiny pirate packs anyway then?

I could also imagine that a player buys a small ship, gets rid of ALL shields, all equipment and installs then a laser that uses up almost all cargo space. Maybe as a Haraki mission: use it, then lose it. Maybe to get that really big reward or mission debriefing. The original "equipment uses up cargo space" concept of Elite was pretty smart.

Now think about it: MAYBE there is one crazy pirate out there that runs a Cobra without any shields, any cargo just one über weapon. He is specialized on attacking Huge ships. This wold be interesting - and rare.

I would also add the idea that pirating for players should be far more rewarding: why not making it possible to enter a ship and loot far more than just 1,2 or 3 tons of material? If we bring the cargo to the "unit" system which means that 1000 tons of cargospace are actually 100.000 units of goods depending how big the goods are and you are attacking a Pirate Titan with, lets say 500.000 units of drugs on board. Lets say you have a small ship and you spent all your money on that one giant weapon that used up all your cargo space. Because you found out that the well known drug dealer with his Titan Cruiser is in the system. So you want to Luke Skywalker his Titan do enter and rob all his drugs! So you make your ship naked and keep only the one giant weapon and the rest is free cargo space for the loot.
You get my story? So you sneak close and hope you can make that one SHOT at the giant cruiser that will immobilize the big ship in one shot so you can enter and transfer all the drugs you can take! The chances are maybe 10% but you have that black monks credit running so you need to take this one last chance...

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:20 pm

"to code in player-escort ships"

- To be honest I do not need the escort ships concept at all. I like it, sure. But I think it is possible to live without it. The Bismark had such big steel plates that it simply deflected the projectiles of the Hood. Not to mention the 10 destroyers attacking it.
If it wasn't for the airplanes the Bismark was pretty save. But Torpedoes are a story! Those are the missiles. IF the pirates can buy deadly and maybe illegal thargoid missiles I would be fine to get killed skywalker style by one lonely tiny pirate - if it is rare and very seldom enough in the game which depends on the availability of illegal weapons (oxp needs to be developed) or those very rare and great weapons you can ONLY get in the Galaxy 13xy where that big war is going on on and the weapons are just amazing. You could go there for those unique missiles but surviving in that galaxy is rather hard if not impossible...maybe you even need to join an alliance to enter the galaxy...in addition the weapons could be sold at the general F8. Great missiles should be rare and unique while the standard missiles should be plenty.

Disembodied wrote:
DrunkenPalpatine wrote:I think it is no problem to make this a well balanced big ship fighting game as well [...]
I'm not a programmer, but I suspect it might be difficult. An aircraft carrier protects itself from attack by enemy aircraft by 1) having its own defensive fighter screen; 2) having lots of anti-aircraft guns; 3) having a wider screen of escort ships, also armed with anti-aircraft guns, missiles etc. Without this, any big ship is going to be vulnerable to lots of little ones. You'd need to code in player-escort ships, to help fend off attacking enemies, and boost the power (and the intelligence) of automatic defences like the plasma turrets - at which point, you're not really playing the game, you're watching the game play itself.

The only non-escort option I can think of is to make the big ships' shields so hugely powerful that little ships' attacks would just bounce off (you'd need to rewrite the little ship AI so they know that their attacks are useless, though - then they'd just run away). Then you could have big battleships moving ponderously around the place, exchanging shots with great big weapons, powerful enough to damage each other. Except that all you've got then is slow-motion dogfighting, with massive shields and massive weapons.
DrunkenPalpatine wrote:PS: the Airplane vs. Battle Ship (Yamato-Class) picture is not valid since we have ships vs. ships. And 10 destroyers would not sink the Yamato. 10 destroyers vs. the Yamato is EXACTLY the picture we need to talk about!!!! This is what I am talking about: 9 Übersize cannons. 30 Middle size cannons. Massive armor. On the other side 10 or 20 destroyers.
THIS would be the battle I would love to see.
OK, so what this needs is: huge shields on the giant ships; amendments to small-ship AI, so they don't attack the giant ships; special giant ship AI, so they ignore the small ships; a new class of middle-sized ships (the Destroyers, in your example - because at the moment, the core game ships like the Mamba, the Cobra III, the Python etc. aren't Destroyers, they're aircraft) which will attack the giant ships and which can also hold their own against the small ships (which may be a problem - how tough/manoeuvrable/well-armed are these middle-sized ships going to be? Because Destroyers can get sunk by aircraft ...).

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by DrunkenPalpatine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:30 pm

Disembodied wrote:The only non-escort option I can think of is to make the big ships' shields so hugely powerful that little ships' attacks would just bounce off (you'd need to rewrite the little ship AI so they know that their attacks are useless, though - then they'd just run away). Then you could have big battleships moving ponderously around the place, exchanging shots with great big weapons, powerful enough to damage each other. Except that all you've got then is slow-motion dogfighting, with massive shields and massive weapons.
Pirate packs should still be able to penetrate my Andromeda. I do not want to be invulnerable! NOT AT ALL. The only thing I want is a more realistic advantage of mass and protection. Let them hit me with their 18 lasers, OK. But then I should at least hold a laser capable of pulverizing ships the size of a gnat with 2 shots no matter which serial number 8 or 9 it is. By now I have to hit 30 times. While I am hit with 18 lasers. Right now in Oolite I actually AM equipped like a tiny ship but I have the size of the death star which makes a giant target, too by the way! THIS is the problem.
Let me repeat: I want to be in danger also by small pirate packs but I need a fair game if I already made so much money to get a big ship.

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Re: Insane attack levels

Post by phkb » Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:23 am

DrunkenPalpatine wrote:This could be archived by deploying the "every equipment should use up cargo space".
[shameless plug mode-on]This is pretty much what [EliteWiki] Ship Configuration does - all equipment takes up space, and a certain amount of cargo space can be re-utilised as equipment space.[shameless plug mode-off]

I think you're right about a few things - (1) the game favours smaller, agile ships for the player. (2) (which comes out of 1) the market economics are also skewed towards smaller ships with small cargo holds. However, when played within these constraints, the game shines. The space battles complement the trading aspects, and vice-versa. Both parts work in harmony.

Can you play the game with a big ship? Sure, and there's plenty of big ships to choose from. But the space combat experience for big ships is dramatically different to the experience in a small ship. And so with the trading, it's possible to do it in a big ship, but you'll be constantly butting your head against the market limits at each station. It works better if you have a small ship with a small cargo hold, and you have to make careful decisions about what you but or sell.

At the moment the game doesn't want you, the player, to become a big-wig, shipping in thousands of tons of X to create thousands of tons of Y, building factories that you have to manage. The game wants you to always remember that it is a big, bad universe out there, and you and your contributions are insignificant in that universe. Once you flip the switch and target this big-time manufacturing, large ship market economics and capital ship battles with players in the big ships, the player has moved to become a prominent figure in the galaxy. The universe has, however subtly, become player centric.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's something that many players would not want. I do, however, think there's room to grow with regard to the handling of big ships. Adding some element of gimballing to big ship laser mounts could improve the space battles. Having variable market limits based on player reliability or other factors could improve the trading. There are a lot of things to try, some of which may required core code changes (ie laser gimbals). Lets take things one at a time and try to improve that part.

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