Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Cody »

Cholmondely wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:52 pm
1) are humanoids only in Oolite, or were there humanoid worlds in Classic Elite too?
Humanoids get a mention in PC Elite's code.
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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Disembodied »

Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:39 am
Does this Jameson chappy really exist? Or is he just some sort of literary fiction?
"Jameson" was the default commander name in the original game, and is almost certainly based on Captain Alexander Lascelles Jamison, an example character from the late-1970s pen-and-paper RPG Traveller which provided quite a lot of inspiration for Elite.

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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Cholmondely »

Good! Back to the subject!
Cholmondely wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:52 pm
There is now a new Species page on our Wiki: http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Species

I'd greatly appreciate some criticism/suggestions for improvement!

Meanwhile:

1) are humanoids only in Oolite, or were there humanoid worlds in Classic Elite too? All versions - or just the 16 bit ones?

2) is there any .plist or wiki page that I can point oxp writers to as regards coding for the various species? (other than the oxps)?

3) are there any pictures anywhere of Thargoids or Oresrians (Thargoid-like with a more convex fourth joint on the hind leg)? Or humanoids?

4) Do the Oresrians come from the rodent-dominated communist system in System/Galaxy 1 - cursed by a dreadful civil war? None of the other systems in The Eight have a system with a similar name which is insect-dominated.
And another ...

5) Working through Cim's history from his Ship's Manual (in his Ship's Library .oxp), it seems as though the lizards started off in Galaxy 1, the insects in Galaxy 7, the felines possibly in Galaxy 5, that the humans settled (a possibly then empty) Galaxy 2, and that the birds and the frogs lived in the same galaxy (6).

Does anybody know any more - or have any ideas about any of this? See http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/History#History for Cim's words.

edited once on discovery that birds & frogs came from Galaxy 6
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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Disembodied »

Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:21 pm
Does anybody know any more - or have any ideas about any of this?
Speaking personally, there are loads of different species in my head-canon. For example, the Blue Bug-Eyed Lizards of Atbevete are completely unrelated to the Black Slimy Lizards of Engema. They might be both more-or-less reptilian, sure, but they're not the same species, and have their own long, rich evolutionary and cultural histories.

I don't really see the need for a timeline or a backstory. The way things are is just the way things are; I don't need to know where Earth is, or how human beings got from there (if they did) to where they are now. For me, a large part of the appeal of the game is its vagueness. It's as close to a blank slate as we can get, and it's built to be modded all over the shop to everyone's individual preferences. Too much backstory just gets in the way.

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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Cholmondely »

Disembodied wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:09 pm
Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:21 pm
Does anybody know any more - or have any ideas about any of this?
Speaking personally, there are loads of different species in my head-canon. For example, the Blue Bug-Eyed Lizards of Atbevete are completely unrelated to the Black Slimy Lizards of Engema. They might be both more-or-less reptilian, sure, but they're not the same species, and have their own long, rich evolutionary and cultural histories.

I don't really see the need for a timeline or a backstory. The way things are is just the way things are; I don't need to know where Earth is, or how human beings got from there (if they did) to where they are now. For me, a large part of the appeal of the game is its vagueness. It's as close to a blank slate as we can get, and it's built to be modded all over the shop to everyone's individual preferences. Too much backstory just gets in the way.
Thank you for this. I'll quote it in suitable pages on the wiki. I'm not trying to tell people what to think - just to show different versions where they exist and also provide possible material for those wanting to - for example - write stories or write missions.
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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Disembodied »

Cholmondely wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:20 pm
Thank you for this. I'll quote it in suitable pages on the wiki. I'm not trying to tell people what to think - just to show different versions where they exist and also provide possible material for those wanting to - for example - write stories or write missions.
Oh yes, absolutely - if people want timelines, or backstories, then by all means they should develop them. Likewise if they want to retool HIMSN or create rebellions against the Co-operative or make the Thargoids into the good guys, or anything else!

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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Redspear »

planetinfo.plist sets the inhabitants for each system.

Re inhabitants and there origins, various theories have been suggested, perhaps the most oft cited being that they all (along with human colonials) originated from Earth.

For my (still WIP) station Variation oxp I drew upon evolutionary theory for a few of the 'jokes' contained within.
So conventional evolutionary history (IIRC) would have it the the groups appeared (on Earth) in this order:
  • Arthropods (crustaceans/lobsters first, then insects)
  • Amphibians (frogs)
  • Lizards
  • Birds
  • Mammals (rodents then felines)
  • Humanoids (various human ancestors)
  • Humans
So what? Well you could use that chronology to plot an imaginary expansion and/or decline of the various groups if you so wished.
Personally, I think it's better when some of it remains unknown. For example, suppose the lore itself contained multiple competing theories and that they were all matter of academic debate with litle hard evidence available for any of them.

Disembodied wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:09 pm
I don't really see the need for a timeline or a backstory... Too much backstory just gets in the way.
Well, yeah... Furthermore, It's almost contrary to the original concept of elite/oolite: launch your ship and make the best of it, discovering (even modding in the case of the latter) as you go.

I remember the early pen & paper role-playing games and how character generation changed over the years.
Initially it was very much, roll the dice, see what comes up and make the best of it. No big backstory, you're essentially a nobody, get some adventuring behind you and create a legend yet untold.

Later on everyone seemed to have a character of unique descent/tragedy/destiny. Their stories were already written and paradoxically much more forgettable than a character that the player him/her/whatever-self would discover as the game unfolded. If they died you didn't feel so bad - they were just a character in the prologue, the real hero was yet to reveal themselves. Your investment in the characters grew, rather like reading a novel rather than full investment after you've just read the blurb.

So by all means put whatever in an oxp (guilty!) but perhaps less really is more when it comes to (standardised) game lore.
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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by stranger »

Redspear wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:34 pm
So conventional evolutionary history (IIRC) would have it the the groups appeared (on Earth) in this order:
  • Arthropods (crustaceans/lobsters first, then insects)
  • Amphibians (frogs)
  • Lizards
  • Birds
  • Mammals (rodents then felines)
  • Humanoids (various human ancestors)
  • Humans
Just my five сopecks (Copeck is loose analog of Western penny).
Ironically, mammals are more old group than birds. Reptiles and mammals are groups with independent evolution, having amphibians as common ancestor. First reptiles and first mammals were emerged in Permian period (late Paleozoic, approx 300 MY). Avians has reptile ancestors and first birds were emerged significantly later - only in Jurassic period (middle Mesozoic, approx 150 MY).

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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Redspear »

stranger wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:31 am
Ironically, mammals are more old group than birds. Reptiles and mammals are groups with independent evolution, having amphibians as common ancestor. First reptiles and first mammals were emerged in Permian period (late Paleozoic, approx 300 MY). Avians has reptile ancestors and first birds were emerged significantly later - only in Jurassic period (middle Mesozoic, approx 150 MY).
Well, I suppose it depends where you want to draw the lines. By some definitions, lizards (rather than just reptiles) appeared later than mammals. As for birds do we strictly mean class Aves or can we include earlier yet very much bird like groups? Even if we strictly used Aves then they'd still be older than felines, so my list was one of convenience rather than accuracy. It would need more specific classification in order to be accurate and even then I perhaps should have separated rodents and felines.

You did (perhaps inadvertantly) catch me referencing the old model of reptiles evolving into mammals however (when synapsids were once thought as such) so thanks for reminding me of that.
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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Cholmondely »

another_commander wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:53 pm
Cholmondely wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:35 pm
Goodness! Where did that come from? I've yet to see anything like it.
That's from a test OXP I had made some years ago when overlays were introduced in the UI. This one just scans the inhabitants description and if it finds the string "insect", it displays the insect overlay. Found here in case anyone is interested (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0 just in case).
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You will, I am confident, be ecstatic! ... nay, exultant! ... to hear the news that ... your very own bug.oxp has its very own bug!

At least on the Mighty and Magnificent Macintosh!

"BugBUgBUG.oxz" does not have a valid manifest.plist and could not be loaded!

One can only presume that the fruity interior of the Apple gives the appropriate richesse and wealth of resource to permit such developments. Whereas inferior computerised contraptions, alas ...
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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by another_commander »

The error occurs also on the inferior machines. More of an issue of the Revered Master being totally thick, I guess. I will reupload with a manifest once I get the chance.

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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by another_commander »


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Re: Species: Lobstoids, Amphiboids, Reptiles etc.

Post by Cholmondely »

another_commander wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:35 pm
Uploaded with manifest: http://wiki.alioth.net/img_auth.php/0/0 ... ysDesc.oxz
Thanking thee, Sir!
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