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General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Post by Disembodied » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:11 pm

:oops: That's the one!

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Post by Commander McLane » Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:34 pm

Sendraks wrote:The problem with "uber ships" is really that they are only "uber ships" if the rest of the games content cannot compete with them, something I think OSE will avoid.

However, what OSE does is really try to balance out the Oolite "arms race" where the industry standard (as it were) shifts from being the Cobra MKIII to more potent vessel.
I beg to differ here. The logic behind this argumentation is that "über" isn't "über" anymore, if only everything is "über". I don't see a reason to shift the industry standard away from the Cobra MkIII (which is a pretty powerful ship itself!) in the first place, and then the fact that it is shifted swiftly and by such a lot of ships isn't helpful at all.

Or, in other words: Why bother with all the re-texturing efforts for the original shipset, if all the original shipset is only going to become sardines in a shark tank? And OSE is very specifically not going to avoid that.
The downside of this (although this depends greatly on your point of view) is that the core Oolite (original Elite) content, gets watered down.
Yes, obviously. Just one example: How on earth shall an Oolite newcomer get the idea that Thargoids are a serious threat, if there are loads of ships which instantly make minced meat out of them? In a Ooniverse full of überships Thargoids are a joke, and the idea that the Galactic Cooperation of Worlds is going to get crushed by them in a matter of a few years is just ridiculous. So, the content of Elite (to which I count the backstory as well) doesn't only get watered down, but thrown out of the window entirely.

Oh, and I already hear the überizers here saying "then we just make über-thargoids to balance it out again". Which merely is the next turn in the arms race, of course. Sorry, I just don't think that the point of Elite/Oolite is to first unbalance everything, and then "balance" it again at a power of ten above the original state. And then of course repeat the drill, because you don't really think it will be over at this point? The next round will see navy ships which are to a Battlestar what a Battlestar is to an Adder, and so on. Again, this is nowhere near the point of Elite/Oolite, at least as far as I conceive it.

And by the way, it's not only the content of the core, but also those of the existing OXPs which respect the core. Assassins, for instance, is meant to be a series of challenging missions. It seems that if you fly a ship with only enough turrets, there is not much challenge left and it becomes a piece of cake.
But as long as the core of Oolite holds true to the original Elite, incorporating features I always wanted to see Elite, and you can customise the game with OXPs that keep the original elite flavour, I don't have any problems.
That of course depends what you think is "true" to the original Elite, and I guess that I would differ from you in this respect. For me the original Elite is a game where the player plays a fairly minor role, piloting an ordinary ship, exploring the charts, and perhaps getting a little involved in the political/military affairs above him. Therefore, being able to pilot a capital ship for me does not hold true to Elite. And effectively being forced to pilot a capital ship, because you simply couldn't survive in a Cobra III amid all the super-strong NPCs, much less so. (And very personally for me even flying a ship with turrets crosses the line. I like the Caduceus as a design, but I will never use it, unless there were some very heavy modifications to the player version. And I don't want it badly enough to do these modifications myself.)

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Post by Griff » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:03 pm

@ Disembodied & Thargoid, thanks guys! I'm going to get those oxp's downloaded and installed. oolite 1.73 has really got me back into playing the game in a big way, the detailed planets option is really beautiful, i'd go and live on Ra in galaxy 1 if i could, it's beautiful

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Post by Sendraks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:25 pm

Commander McLane wrote: Or, in other words: Why bother with all the re-texturing efforts for the original shipset, if all the original shipset is only going to become sardines in a shark tank? And OSE is very specifically not going to avoid that.
That is a very good pojnt and one of the reasons I am hesitant (despite many of the excellent features in it) to install OSE. At the same time I don't wish to detract from Lestrade's hard work and the many good ideas in the OSE. Working up to owning your own station is an amazing idea and something that has stayed with me since I read one of the short stories which came with Frontier.

What would be nice is to have a version of OSE that didn't have any OXP ships with it, just the shipyards and other features.

I don't want to see the core set of Elite ships become utterly redundant compared to a new class of super ships. That for me is not what elite/oolite is about. I hadn't thought about it that way before.
Commander McLane wrote:Yes, obviously. Just one example: How on earth shall an Oolite newcomer get the idea that Thargoids are a serious threat, etc etc.
Again fully agree and this is much what I had in mind when I was thinking of watered down content. The concept of going into a space battle with the Thargoids (or engineering one through a mis-jump) and then having your ship slaughter everything alone is........well.........its not Elite to me. Having your ship as part of a naval force that battles the Thargoids, well that is not original Elite either, but it is something I wanted in the original Amiga game and it still feels sufficiently "elitey" to me.

I also agree on your point that the arms race becomes self perpetuating and, as I've said in previous posts on this topic, illogical. I'm not prepared to accept the existence of super fast, super tough, combat vessels with a sizeable cargo bay, in this game. Thats all the parameters of common sense being thrown out of the window and no real thought being given to the logic behind the performance metrics of the core ships.
Commander McLane wrote:That of course depends what you think is "true" to the original Elite, and I guess that I would differ from you in this respect.
I'm not so sure, I don't think we're poles apart.
Commander McLane wrote:I like the Caduceus as a design, but I will never use it, unless there were some very heavy modifications to the player version. And I don't want it badly enough to do these modifications myself.)
I like the design, but I've yet to use it. Despite its hefty price tag, I do think the ship is a bit "too good" for what it is. So on my version of Oolite I've lowered the speed and the cargo bay size. A real bugbear of mine is speeds above 4LM. In fact, it is a bug bear above 3.5 LM. Frankly an increase to 3.6LM (which is faster than any of the core ships) is a significant feat of engineering, but there are OXP ships plenty faster than that which don't seem to trade off speed for cargo capacity or, size.

Dis-regarding cost (because ultimately unless you're playing the game in a hard core mode, all prices are ultimately achieveable) ship design is tied to the following.

Speed
Size
Cargo Capacity

Assuming the Cobra MkIII as a base, to make that ship faster you either have to lose cargo capacity (for extra engine room) or make the ship bigger, for extra engine room. The Cobra Rapier is a good example, I think, of where a ship is redesigned to go faster, but at the expense of cargo space and also a change to the ships dimensions. For an extra 0.3LM over the standard Cobby, the Rapier gives up 8 tonnes of space. That is the kind of design thinking I like and fits with the mold of the game.

It would be nice if there were some formula tying cargo space to speed in some way. Of course factors like energy banks and energy recharge mess up the simplicity of this. A ship with a grotesque energy recharge has to store that powerplant somewhere, which means either less cargo space or a larger ship. Larger ship means more mass which means larger engines and so forth. By my reckoning the Super Cobra on the wiki (ugh, I hate this ship) should probably have a cargo bay of 0, to fit all of the gubbins in which give it such insane performance.

A project I'd like to do, if I can find the time, is sit down with the stats for all the ships and work out some sort of formula or at least "normalise" the stats to get a reasonable "range" of performance for all ships that fits within the elite mold.

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Post by Cmdr Wyvern » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:37 pm

I don't consider turrets as primary weapons, and instead consider them as best in a defensive/supportive role. Turrets have severe limitations, being that they only sport plasma cannons.
* Can be destroyed.
* They have very short ranges.
* They're not all that precise.
* Bloody slow refire rate.
* Bloody slow "projectile".
* They'll only engage one target at a time, and that target must be hostile, be in the turret's firing arc, and be close enough. If those conditions aren't met, fugetaboutit.

Lasers are my primary weapons, being precise at long ranges.
I'll leave turrets to try to shoot down incoming hardheads (they're not always successful with that) scaring injector-mad kamikazes, and potshot NPCs that get too close.
Turreted NPCs are going to get lasersniped well out of range of their plasma turrets.

Now as for the Thargs:
The native Thargoid warship isn't a very tough customer, despite the gimbol-mounted lasers and robot support fighters. A well equipped Cobby can dust one fairly easily.

The Thargoid Threat oxp, however, introduces some heavy hitting Bugs. It takes two full mil laser salvos plus a lucky missile hit to kill a Thargoid Cruiser or Battleship, and you won't kill it without taking damage. I forget how many laser mounts those things are packing... A -lot- gimboled lasers.
And they have plasma turrets of their own. So much for close-range duelling with a Tharg Battleship unless you're fearless and very lucky. And you'll usually misjump into a swarm of Thargs that're itching for a fight. Turrets Smurrets, you're not getting out of that furball unscathed.
Thargoid Threat can make the Plans mission very interesting indeed.

Of course you could be a punk and hurl cascade missiles at them. Cascade warheads, bah!! Not much challenge in deploying cascade warheads. I never carry them, they're a wimp's way out.
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Post by Sendraks » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:57 pm

Yup, I have Thargoid Threat installed as I did find the native Thargoids a bit on the easy side.

I've yet to fly a ship with a turret mount and will review the performance and decide whether further tweaks to already modified OXPs are needed.

I'm presently flying the Wolf MKII SE, as the Wolf MkII was one of my fav ships from Amiga Elite and it pleases me that the OXP fits the concept of the ship well. i.e. it is a tough, fast, little ship. Doesn't hold much cargo and can't have a modified cargo bay, so a step up from the Cobby in some aspects, but not all.

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Post by Wolfwood » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:27 pm

Sendraks wrote: A project I'd like to do, if I can find the time, is sit down with the stats for all the ships and work out some sort of formula or at least "normalise" the stats to get a reasonable "range" of performance for all ships that fits within the elite mold.
Following precisely your argumentation (which I snipped), I once came up with this table of ship classes. Someone could pick up from this, perhaps, and get the project somewhere beyond mere recommendations (which is what the linked table is about):

http://www.susimetsa.net/funstuff/oolite/index2c.html

I basically got to this table by looking at all the core ships as well as some OXPs that added reasonable ships (Aegidian's, mostly, if I remember correctly).

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Post by ClymAngus » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:06 pm

Commander McLane wrote:I like the Caduceus as a design, but I will never use it, unless there were some very heavy modifications to the player version. And I don't want it badly enough to do these modifications myself.)
You see that's why I like you, your a purist. The world needs more purists, I on the other hand am a proud megalomaniac. I built the ship for me first and other people second. Hell I've already suffered a browbeating and brought the stats down once (I much preferred it when one volley could ass fracture a star).

Caduceus is a reward for having to do the mindless back and forth again and again. Not your game? That's cool, it never gets into the hands of pirates so unless you take one on then your safe. Like the ship but hate the stats well that's cool too, it's a bio-ship there's always room for a runt of the litter. Pop the hood have a play. Turn it into a flying turd I don't care. :D

I wanted something that could pop a monk at 10 paces without resorting to a bomb, and looked the mutts nuts. That was the design spec and that's what I made (with the Omega anyway). I have minor reservations regarding it being rolled into shipyards, because there's not one inch of that ship that gives 2 hoots about game balance. But that's not my call.

Love it or hate it it's out there. And with some optional tweaks that the very good commander W has made it's about to get just a little bit more difficult to kill (other than the sub-entity plate work of course). Always a bonus.

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Post by Tivva » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:55 pm

Cmdr Wyvern wrote:@Tivva,
Want to see what it's really capable of? Have Thargoid Threat installed, misjump, and use it to hammer the snot out of those Bugs.
Thargoids don't know fear, but by the time you're done with them, they'll know what respect means. :twisted:
Don't you mean "Thargorn threat"?
If so, I already have it installed. I have misjumped a couple of times to shoot some bugs & then scoop up the remaining dorment Tharglets/ Thargons/ whatever- only managed to get 140 tonnes of them so far, but the next jump to a system with a Navy station gives me 90Cr for each one 8)
The Thargoid battleships cut me to pieces- I haven't got a Navel Energy unit & not found one for sale even on a tech lvl 15 station.
Cruisers & Terroriser Frigates are no longer scary.
If you want to try it I can post you a save game file?

Tiv

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Post by wackyman465 » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:11 pm

Or shall I just be done with it and write that black hole missile?
Like, perchance, the UVB from Starfighter: Disputed Galaxy?
I shot him back first. That is to say, I read his mind and fired before he would have fired on me. No, sir, he wasn't a fugitive.

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Post by Sendraks » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:39 am

Wolfwood - thanks for the table, certainly is helpful. I'll start a separate thread on this topic at some point today rather than derail the screenshot thread with further ship stats discussion.

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Post by Thargoid » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:48 am

wackyman465 wrote:
Or shall I just be done with it and write that black hole missile?
Like, perchance, the UVB from Starfighter: Disputed Galaxy?
Along those lines. One that simply makes the ship it touches blow up without exception, and is immune to ECM, lasers, ramming and colourful language. And then make sure that NPCs can have it... :twisted:

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Post by ovvldc » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:30 am

While I respect and enjoy the conversation -> Screenshots please.

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Post by Cmdr Wyvern » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:57 pm

Tivva wrote: Don't you mean "Thargorn threat"?
Yeah.
The Thargoid battleships cut me to pieces-
You're getting too close, and relying too much on turrets. At turret ranges, you're receiving the full brunt of the Battleship's firepower, and it's point-blank range to the Bugs. They're not going to miss at that range.

The Kirin is a slow turner, but that's actually a tactical advantage as it helps in getting stable aim for sniper shots. Practice sniping, learn to use the mil laser's long range, and fight the Bugs from a distance. Don't let them get close! The closer they get, the more damage they're going to inflict.

But don't get me wrong. You're going to be needing repairs if you survive regardless. The point is to survive and make it to the garage.
I haven't got a Navel Energy unit & not found one for sale even on a tech lvl 15 station.
That's rich. I got the NEU the old-fashioned way: I flew the mission!
Cruisers & Terroriser Frigates are no longer scary.
If you want to try it I can post you a save game file?

Tiv
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Post by Tivva » Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:45 pm

Cmdr Wyvern wrote:
The Thargoid battleships cut me to pieces-
You're getting too close, and relying too much on turrets. At turret ranges, you're receiving the full brunt of the Battleship's firepower, and it's point-blank range to the Bugs. They're not going to miss at that range.
I only get too close when I misjump into the sprawling melee...8)


Cmdr Wyvern wrote:
I haven't got a Navel Energy unit & not found one for sale even on a tech lvl 15 station.
That's rich. I got the NEU the old-fashioned way: I flew the mission!
Strange - so did I...So why hasn't it transferred across with the sale???

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