RFC: Fancy classics

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Simon B
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Post by Simon B »

Eric Walch wrote:
Ark wrote:@SimonB
I strongly suggest the use of a version number from now one so i made both of them an initial release (ver 1.0).
And probably also use the requires.plist as I noticed with the behemoth replacement that it sets minimum oolite version at 1.65 while it needs the normal mapping of Oolte 1.73 to work.
neolite-megaships is beta only - not finished.

There is too much wrong with it, I'm adapting it to a newer edition of behemoths. However, it is not clear if it will be a behemoth replacement at all.

It does not follow the standard neolite philosophy.

Technically, I can just add a normal map and shaders to the existing behemoth.

I have a bunch of oxps now which are centered around the theme of very large ships.


Do we want to use the megaships as neolite behemoths?
Do we want to revamp the navy models along the same lines as megaships then? Or are we better off keeping to standard neolite methods?

I really need opinions on this before continuing.
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Post by Simon B »

Ark wrote:I have created a wiki page for neolite ships and neolite companion. Not much to see yet but at least a good starting point and a reference for new players to download them.

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Neolite_Ships
Nice - shame we cannot get a screenshot in there. Will the Wiki not allow embedding images from elsewhere?
@SimonB
I strongly suggest the use of a version number from now one so i made both of them an initial release (ver 1.0).
The readme.1st file in the tarballs includes a version number based on the release date. Pre-release does not get a number.

I did not put a release number an the tarball because that would break the links. Not on the oxp, because of people adding two versions side by side.
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Post by Ark »

Simon B wrote: Do we want to use the megaships as neolite behemoths?
As long as it not adds or removes anything (new ships like the boa swift in the main package!!) from the clasic oxp yes.
Simon B wrote: Do we want to revamp the navy models along the same lines as megaships then? Or are we better off keeping to standard neolite methods?
I prefer the standard noelite methods. Although in the version that I have the navy viper is the same with the galcop and the Navy asp definitely needs a revision
Simon B wrote: Will the Wiki not allow embedding images from elsewhere?
I have no idea :oops:

Now about the version number i meant about the neolite core and companion in case you change something in the future. Just change the version number in the read me and inform me in order to change it in the wiki

Have you decide if you are going to split the companion into neolite oldships ect?

What about the new cargo pods in aegidian specials ?

From my point of view adding, changing or removing stuff from an oxp when you turn it into a neolite oxp will make things more complicated and at the same time you decrease the chances of an quick acceptance from the community. We realy need to make a policy on that

Right now I am checking the neolite core and neolite companion. There are some small observations and recommentations that I want to share with you later (I need to go!!)

Also now is clear to me that you comfuse oxps (Like the Galactic navy with the Navy ships) In case you want to ask anything about an oxp just ask me or PM me.
behemoth was a bad choice from the begininng (since it has an interaction with other oxps). There are other oxps that is extremely easy to turn them into neolite versions like the new vipers or new ships oxps

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Post by Simon B »

Ark wrote:
Simon B wrote: Do we want to use the megaships as neolite behemoths?
As long as it not adds or removes anything (new ships like the boa swift in the main package!!) from the classic oxp yes.
The guy with a behemoth as an avatar says yes... despite:
I prefer the standard noelite methods.
... and the megaships departs strongly.
Although in the version that I have the navy viper is the same with the galcop and the Navy asp definitely needs a revision
Don't worry - I have revised models of both, and a rattlecutter.
Simon B wrote: Will the Wiki not allow embedding images from elsewhere?
I have no idea :oops:
If it does there will be a wikicode equivalent to <img> tags.
Now about the version number i meant about the neolite core and companion in case you change something in the future. Just change the version number in the read me and inform me in order to change it in the wiki
I don't anticipate major changes in the near future.
Have you decide if you are going to split the companion into neolite oldships ect?
I suspect I'll split off aegidean ships as a single, but not soon.
What about the new cargo pods in aegidian specials ?
Last time this was mentioned, the response was muted... what say the community?

The aegidean barrels are not that flash - a mod will probably end up just applying a different skin and a normalmap. i.e. Boring! If someone wants these really really much - sooner than later, then design them. I'll include them.
From my point of view adding, changing or removing stuff from an oxp when you turn it into a neolite oxp will make things more complicated and at the same time you decrease the chances of an quick acceptance from the community. We realy need to make a policy on that
Current policy is to make no changes to the oxp apart from models - but some oxps may have a functional change where an update seems warrented. Changes to be discussed here.

Similarly, changes mandated by the models will be included. eg. The skiffs, and the improved roll on the anaconda.
Also now is clear to me that you confuse oxps (Like the Galactic navy with the Navy ships) In case you want to ask anything about an oxp just ask me or PM me.
No sweat - though I was referring to those ships as "star-trek like" for ages and nobody corrected me!!! Never mind.

One of the reasons for combining oxps and changing names around is that many oxps have conflicting or misleading names. It would be nice not to have to be too much a slave to history.

oldships are not actually old ships, to get old ships, you need rusties, though there are also vintage editions of the asp and the adder.
behemoth was a bad choice from the begininng (since it has an interaction with other oxps). There are other oxps that is extremely easy to turn them into neolite versions like the new vipers or new ships oxps
Oh I realise - the real simple ones are so easy that other people can do them too. In that light, I should be doing the difficult ones.

But, I've called for suggestions on a number of occasions... pcc was one for eg. Other than that, I've been doing the ones that I play.
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Post by Ark »

Some observations - suggestions (all of the in good will) about the neolite core package

1.The creation of a dedicated texture for the station entrance.
Right now oolite uses the dark_metal.png . With the creation of that texture (in our case dock_metal.png) plus a small modification to the dock and dock-flat models like that

Code: Select all

NVERTS 8
NFACES 10

VERTEX
-32, -96, -250
-32, -96, 0
-32, 96, 0
-32, 96, -250
32, -96, -250
32, -96, 0
32, 96, 0
32, 96, -250

FACES
127,127,127,	0.000000,-1.000000,0.000000,	3,	2,3,7
127,127,127,	-0.000000,-1.000000,-0.000000,	3,	6,2,7
127,127,127,	0.000000,1.000000,0.000000,	3,	0,1,5
127,127,127,	0.000000,1.000000,-0.000000,	3,	4,0,5
127,127,127,	1.000000,-0.000000,0.000000,	3,	2,0,3
127,127,127,	1.000000,-0.000000,0.000000,	3,	1,0,2
127,127,127,	-1.000000,0.000000,0.000000,	3,	7,4,6
127,127,127,	-1.000000,-0.000000,0.000000,	3,	6,4,5
127,127,127,	0.000000,0.000000,1.000000,	3,	4,3,0
127,127,127,	0.000000,0.000000,1.000000,	3,	7,3,4

TEXTURES
dock_metal.png	256 256	0.000000 256.000000	0.000000 0.000000	256.000000 0.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 256.000000	0.000000 256.000000	256.000000 0.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	0.000000 0.000000	0.000000 256.000000	256.000000 256.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 0.000000	0.000000 0.000000	256.000000 256.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 256.000000	0.000000 0.000000	0.000000 256.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 0.000000	0.000000 0.000000	256.000000 256.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	0.000000 256.000000	0.000000 0.000000	256.000000 256.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 256.000000	0.000000 0.000000	256.000000 0.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 0.000000	0.000000 256.000000	0.000000 0.000000
dock_metal.png	256 256	256.000000 256.000000	0.000000 256.000000	256.000000 0.000000

END
In order to use that png instead of the dark_metal.png all stations (native and oxp ones) will look better because lots of other oxps can be benefit from that since they use the dock or dock-flat model.
The dark_metal.png must stay as it is since a lot oxps use that for other reasons

2.I really miss the red color of cobramk1_alt and also the star that its texture has. Now is a half pink half white texture

3.I really miss the pirate flag in the texture of python-blackdog also you may want to revise a little bit the texture for python-trader because all that purple color does not seem right

4.In the sidewinder escort you have change the name to Sidewinder Scout/Escort. Is that a mistake or it was on purpose

5.The transporter and transporter miner has the same texture. I have done the same observation for the worm and worm miner

Finally can you tell me how I can remove that gray line from the bottom of the front view in the cobra MK3 player? It is really annoying since it cut my view. I do not like copkits I prefer huds because they give you a sense of freedom

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Post by Eric Walch »

Ark wrote:Finally can you tell me how I can remove that gray line from the bottom of the front view in the cobra MK3 player? It is really annoying since it cut my view. I do not like copkits I prefer huds because they give you a sense of freedom
There are more ships with a blocked view. e.g. the Boa mk2. I changed the forward view to: 0.0 8.0 50.0

cockpit view were you see part of your ship would make sense when it worked all around the ship, but it feels strange to me when looking backward, with the whole ship in between, you have no obstructed view, while forward you have. With the original neolite view the whole radar was covered making it difficult to see the ships there.

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Post by Simon B »

Ark wrote:Some observations - suggestions (all of the in good will) about the neolite core package

1.The creation of a dedicated texture for the station entrance.
Right now oolite uses the dark_metal.png . With the creation of that texture (in our case dock_metal.png) plus a small modification to the dock and dock-flat models like that
You are saying you think the dock interior should look different?
The dark_metal.png must stay as it is since a lot oxps use that for other reasons
that png is in the core set as well, it ain't gonna go away.
2.I really miss the red color of cobramk1_alt and also the star that its texture has. Now is a half pink half white texture
Anyone want to paint me a cobbie 1 texture?

3.I really miss the pirate flag in the texture of python-blackdog also you may want to revise a little bit the texture for python-trader because all that purple color does not seem right
The set currently up has different textures for those two.
Image
I have been using the stormbringer-chaos logo for pirates and generally dodgy types. It did not seem reasonable that non-humans would find a human skull intimidating. Similarly, I've been trying to avoid English or even Latin-character writing on the ships.

OTOH: military is supposed to be mostly human so those ships have a skull + crossed-swords logo as in mamba escort.

The sidewinder is often found off by itself.

4.In the sidewinder escort you have change the name to Sidewinder Scout/Escort. Is that a mistake or it was on purpose
On-purpose. The police vipers are called "Galcop (Viper) Cruiser", "Galcop (Viper) Interceptor", etc instead of "Galcop Viper" and "Galcop Viper Interceptor" ... non-galcop vipers would then get named "Viper 1" (Renegade) and "Viper 1 hybrid" (Vigilante)... since it seems odd that the IFF would actually identify the ships as "renegade" etc. Just like there is no ship named "Cobra mk3 Pirate". Kinda self defeating.

5.The transporter and transporter miner has the same texture. I have done the same observation for the worm and worm miner
I don't have separate textures for those.
Finally can you tell me how I can remove that gray line from the bottom of the front view in the cobra MK3 player? It is really annoying since it cut my view. I do not like copkits I prefer huds because they give you a sense of freedom
That grey line is part of the nose of the cobra. Move the forward viewpoint.
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Post by Simon B »

Eric Walch wrote:
Ark wrote:Finally can you tell me how I can remove that gray line from the bottom of the front view in the cobra MK3 player? It is really annoying since it cut my view. I do not like copkits I prefer huds because they give you a sense of freedom
There are more ships with a blocked view. e.g. the Boa mk2. I changed the forward view to: 0.0 8.0 50.0
That puts the viewpoint half-way down the nose and some 6-8m up from it.

you are supposed to see a lot of the nose of the ship, none of the sides and back.

Code: Select all

		view_position_aft = "0.0 16.0 -41.0";
		view_position_forward = "0.0 12.0 16.0";
		view_position_port = "-11 7.5 17.0";
		view_position_starboard = "11 7.5 17.0";
cockpit view were you see part of your ship would make sense when it worked all around the ship,
The BCC has no cockpit windows in the other directions. You'd see nothing at all. For indirect views, the craft uses cameras.

A large trader does not need a full field of view - it is not a combat ship by design - just because certain traders like to use it like one...

the only peaceful role which is harder due to the part-obstructed forward view is scooping, and there is a scoop camera for that.

but it feels strange to me when looking backward, with the whole ship in between, you have no obstructed view, while forward you have. With the original neolite view the whole radar was covered making it difficult to see the ships there.
That's odd, I find that having a bit of hull over the IFF makes it more visible (except for sun-strike). If you have to engage opponents coming out of the sun, you'll find that having the hull there, blocking the glare, helps ;) But all this is easily fixed in the HUD.

I had considered adding a transparent grey image to the standard huds, creating a tinted-glass effect. So pilots can read the HUD even when pointed at the star. I'm not confident that I can get the position right for all screens though.
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Post by Simon B »

Thargoid Revisited
Looking at the navy and thargorn-threat etc thargoids, with reference to earlier observations about the neolite thargoid not fitting in... and with half an eye on griffs thargoids ... I figured I'd revisit the design.
Image
... the idea here is that I keep the things that were liked in the earlier design - mix in stuff that was liked in the thargon, but keep the standard shape overall. This should be easier to remix for the alternate thargoidish ships, re-liveried for other thargon clans/units, and so on. Meanwhile, it won't be too different.

The image above is what it would look like without shaders. Expect the normalmap to add definition to the model. Special effects will add hull-reflections. The specular will make the grey sections harder and shinier.

The big circle on the bottom turns into an iris valve.

It would be cute to animate some of the lights ... goodness knows how I'd do that though. I'll have a closer look at how the spacebar does the neon sign. Perhaps the lightning on the bottom can flicker and the lights strobe and chase?
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Post by Simon B »

Cobra Mod
No idea what this is - woke in the middle of the night with this thing clawing it's way out of my skull.
Image
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Post by DaddyHoggy »

Simon B wrote:Cobra Mod
No idea what this is - woke in the middle of the night with this thing clawing it's way out of my skull.
Image
More clawing! It's fab!
Selezen wrote:Apparently I was having a DaddyHoggy moment.
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Post by Wolfwood »

Simon B wrote:Cobra Mod
No idea what this is - woke in the middle of the night with this thing clawing it's way out of my skull.
Image
Seems like something I had in mind when I designed Cobra Rapier with my inferior skills - slimmer and faster version of the Cobra, less room for cargo. I'd be honoured if you chose to turn this into a Cobra Rapier replacement... :oops:

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Post by Ark »

Simon B wrote:You are saying you think the dock interior should look different?
Yes different and better. Sung did it with his textures in the past but instead of create a dedicated texture for the entrance and do the modifications to the dock and dock-flat model he just overwrite the dark_metal.png (with catastrophic consequences for a lot oxps). I can not locate the tread right now and to tell you the truth this tread is something that I personally want to forget (I am sure that the old members of the forum like you can understand why I want to forget :wink: )

Also have you ever considered making a model replacement for the rock hermit? Right now the rock hermit is just an asteroid with a hole. Bear in mind that I can not predict the consequences that this will have in oxps like the rock hermit locator, pirate coves and maybe others. Maybe Eric can tell you what you must avoid if you decide to do this
Last edited by Ark on Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ark wrote:
Simon B wrote:You are saying you think the dock interior should look different?
Yes different and better. Sung did it with his textures in the past but instead of create a dedicated texture for the entrance and do the modifications to the dock and dock-flat model he just overwrite the dark_metal.png (with catastrophic consequences for a lot oxps). I can not locate the tread right now and to tell you the truth this tread is something that I personally want to forget (I am sure that the old members of the forum like you can understand why I want to forget :wink: )
Ah yes, the closest we ever got to a flame-war, it was not pretty, Sung is not missed on these pages, the interloper he turned out to be.
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Post by Simon B »

Hmmm... Cobra Rapier would sort of fit - this is a cobra-clipper shell, cut to accomodate the engines, and body but two engines instead of one. This would suggest a very fast craft though.

I'll see about a proper skin. Some aspects of the model need tidying.
(I was going to do a cobra rapier along different lines - ultra-sleek, but reminiscent of your model.)

But, entertainingly distracting as this is... I am supposed to be working on that behemoth/navy thing: with respect to the last batch of feedback...

I've been musing about how neolite ships keep interfering with non-neolite oxps.

I could group the neolite models that get used a lot into a ships-only oxp. If I give them different names and no shipyard, that will stop them interfering. When I come to do an OXP with one of these ships, I'd just change it's shipdata.plist to a list of like_ship entries.

So - I'd have neolite-shiptype.oxp (cobras, thargons, vipers, and so on).
The ships will still show up by role - though I could nix that too.
The downside is that you'd have to install the neolite version of an oxp to get those ships in it.

Ship-only oxps, like new-ships, will still be replaced toto. No change is anticipated to the core-ships for this neither. But the fancier mission-oriented oxps will have dependencies on these neolite ship-packs. But only the neolite version - and that's the point.

With current projects, this means that megaships.oxp would contain the behemoths for neolite-behemoth.oxp, neolite-behemoth-spacewar.oxp, neolite-navy.oxp and neolite-thargorn.oxp (did I miss one?).

(I was thinking of giving megaships the super-size craft from navy too, with the support craft, so all the military craft are under one roof. But that may make it too big. OR I could put the non-mega ships in a seperate neolite-military.oxp)

Proposed modifications to existing experimental ships - megaships to use big-muzzle cannon in strategic places instead of the dinky ball turrets, anaconda cruiser to use the dinky turrets instead of the phallic ones it's got. Comments?

The megaships currently have a large-scale normalmap in front and a small-scale one in back. I need to use the same scale throughout - which is best? Or is it actually good right now?
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