On energy bombs

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Fell
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Post by Fell »

if you don't like energy bombs.....

maybe, don't buy them....

then they aren't spoiling your game.....simples ?
aboard The Cry of Woe... carrion your cargo !

enjoying elite since acorn 80's

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DaddyHoggy
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Post by DaddyHoggy »

Fell wrote:if you don't like energy bombs.....

maybe, don't buy them....

then they aren't spoiling your game.....simples ?
If they're not there - you can't buy them - even more simples!
Selezen wrote:Apparently I was having a DaddyHoggy moment.
Oolite Life is now revealed here

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Zbond-Zbond
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Post by Zbond-Zbond »

I'm making some flights in an adder with ¢100 and can't afford an energy bomb yet. After a few more trips I could be in the market for one -- or there might be something urgenter (not really thinking about that yet). In this vessel with only one pylon mount -- although I'm not wasting money on missiles either at the moment, trade being urgentest -- an energy bomb would be high on the priority list of course, and I glean that I'd be able to get one by playing in "strict" mode. In 1.74.

What limitations regarding OXP's apply in strict mode? I've looked at the wiki but can't turn up anything with the search button.

I've played in strict mode, and it seems that if I savegame at a station, I'm no longer in strict mode after launching from station: there"s a hOopy casino, anyway..

so it would be possible, I assume, to start off in strict gameplay for the authentic experience, and then abandon the discipline with the passage of time once skills (and credits) had accrued?

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Post by Cody »

Energy bombs… certainly part of the core game.

As an ‘old timer’ I have used the things but they really don’t improve gameplay.
Even on the old BBC Elite I stopped using them after a short while.
I always carry one but have not used it for a long long while… if I could sell it I would.
Any decent combateer has no need of that sort of weapon so I wouldn’t miss them.

However, removing a core component… if it’s still there in strict mode, then I suppose so.
Not my decision and probably shouldn’t be… that’s what Devs are for, and they have done pretty good so far.
If you have them then there should be a very very serious penalty to pay for using one.
<he said, sitting firmly on the fence>

DH’s last two posts above say it all really.

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Post by DaddyHoggy »

Zbond-Zbond wrote:I'm making some flights in an adder with ¢100 and can't afford an energy bomb yet. After a few more trips I could be in the market for one -- or there might be something urgenter (not really thinking about that yet). In this vessel with only one pylon mount -- although I'm not wasting money on missiles either at the moment, trade being urgentest -- an energy bomb would be high on the priority list of course, and I glean that I'd be able to get one by playing in "strict" mode. In 1.74.

What limitations regarding OXP's apply in strict mode? I've looked at the wiki but can't turn up anything with the search button.

I've played in strict mode, and it seems that if I savegame at a station, I'm no longer in strict mode after launching from station: there"s a hOopy casino, anyway..

so it would be possible, I assume, to start off in strict gameplay for the authentic experience, and then abandon the discipline with the passage of time once skills (and credits) had accrued?
Strict means "strict" as in "As Elite would be" as in NO OXPs...

EDIT: Pretty sure you can't open a non-strict save-game into a strict-game for the very reason you've just described
Selezen wrote:Apparently I was having a DaddyHoggy moment.
Oolite Life is now revealed here

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JensAyton
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Post by JensAyton »

JeffBTX wrote:But in such discussions, not everyone, including oldtimers and newcomers alike, are necessarily going to post an opinion, and DIDN'T necessarily post an opinion.
Nevertheless, a discussion is a better way of gauging community opinion than a forum poll, as they always have biases and it’s less obvious what they are.
Zbond-Zbond wrote:What limitations regarding OXP's apply in strict mode? I've looked at the wiki but can't turn up anything with the search button.
There are no OXPs in strict mode. (Not even the debug OXP, if you’re in strict mode when you launch.)
Zbond-Zbond wrote:I've played in strict mode, and it seems that if I savegame at a station, I'm no longer in strict mode after launching from station: there"s a hOopy casino, anyway..
If so, that was a bug. Strict mode is supposed to work in 1.73.x, but was broken for some time before that.

As for the “core game” thing: outside of strict mode, the game is deliberately different from original Elite in a number of ways. For instance, the fact that you can come to a complete stop is probably a more noticeable difference to most players than the absence of energy bombs will be. Other changes include a different set of equipment and weapons, including hardheads and Q-mines. Classifying these into “additions” and “removals” is simplistic; strict mode aims for largely authentic recreation (while still being less player-centric), while unrestricted mode aims to be better, and that has to include fixing problems. Energy bombs are out of place in unrestricted Oolite, and that’s a problem that is now fixed.

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Post by another_commander »

I just wanted to comment on JeffBTX's assertion that things get rejected on the basis of not being canon. This is an incorrect statement. When we reject a request, it is not because it deviates from canon, it is because it affects gameplay in a way that is considered unbalancing or otherwise inappropriate. If we had to stick to canon, then Strict Mode would be all there would be for Oolite and none of the new items would ever go in. You know which items these are, I don't need to enumerate them yet again.

In this case, we have a hugely unbalancing mega-weapon, that was included in the original Elite for reasons of the game being player-centric, as DaddyHoggy has already explained. Oolite follows a very simple principle: If the player has it, then the NPCs have it as well. That is valid for everything EXCEPT - you guessed it - the energy bomb. I think it's time the cheat bomb goes, simply because it affects gameplay in an unbalancing way.

If to all the above you add the fact that the current scripting system provides everything needed to make it an OXP weapon, then I really don't see why the core should carry on being unbalanced in favor of the player.

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Post by Lucidor »

I vote in favour of the decision. E-bombs makes you lazy and takes away excitement from the game. If you are about to get killed you still have the option to flee, drop a q-bomb or witchspace. All much more rewarding than hitting tab and walk away.

If it's not removed there will always be the temptation to buy one because you really don't want to have to go back to the last save. I'd rather not have it at all.

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Post by Disembodied »

another_commander wrote:Oolite follows a very simple principle: If the player has it, then the NPCs have it as well.
That, I think, is as good an expression of Oolite canon as any. A game where the NPCs have e-bombs would be pretty much unplayable: but those that want original, player-only e-bombs can have them via an OXP.

Elite is an all-time classic game, but it wasn't perfect. It was probably as close to perfect as the time and technology allowed, but things can always be made better. Personally, I think the witchspace malfunction / Thargoid ambush could do with being fixed in the core game. It's a great feature until the first time you manage to heroically defeat your foes, only to find out that you're stuck there, ha ha, quit out and start again ... If it was up to me, I'd make your original wormhole reopen somewhere nearby if and when you destroy the last enemy. (I'm not trying to derail this thread, honest – my main point is that, just because the original game had something, it's no reason to keep it like that forever after. Although, if the devs are in a mood to make core changes ... ;) )

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Post by Lucidor »

Disembodied wrote:If it was up to me, I'd make your original wormhole reopen somewhere nearby if and when you destroy the last enemy.
Just like that? Wouldn't it be better to have the jump only consume as much fuel as it takes to get you where you are intercepted? Then you'd have enough fuel to make it the last bit. (if you don't use the injectors :))

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Post by JensAyton »

Disembodied wrote:If it was up to me, I'd make your original wormhole reopen somewhere nearby if and when you destroy the last enemy.
How exactly does the presence of hostiles suppress the wormhole?

On the other hand, reopening after a delay and/or some distance away might not be a bad idea.

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Post by ADCK »

I'm fine with it if they can be added with an OXP, wouldn't be hard to modify killit to make a new one.

I'm sure there'll be a E-bomb OXP after the patch is released, If not I'll make one, it's a relatively simple task.

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Post by JazHaz »

drew wrote:They are in the original Elite, and in 'The Dark Wheel' too, removing them seems like rewriting history and gives the fiction writers a headache in rationalising them away - might make for a story though...
This is the way I feel. They are in the original game, and they are part of the Elite universe.

You should not be allowed to remove them.

I like Oolite because it is Elite as it should have been. Adding new stuff to it is right and makes for a more immersive game. Taking stuff away is plain wrong.

And not everyone is brilliant at combat. Once in a while I'll use an energy bomb, but only as a last resort, when I am down to my last line of energy. I've only used a Q-mine once, and basically didn't like it much. Its just not for me. Besides it can't be used easily when your energy is dropping dangerously low as you have to, select it, target it and launch it, which takes too long, as opposed to just hitting TAB once!

I suggest make it an option. In 1.74 make it default to off, but leave the option there for those of us who want it.
JazHaz

Gimi wrote:
drew wrote:£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
Cheers,
Drew.
Maybe you could start a Kickstarter Campaign to found your £4500 pledge. 8)
Thanks to Gimi, I got an eBook in my inbox tonight (31st May 2014 - Release of Elite Reclamation)!

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Post by JazHaz »

ADCK wrote:I'm fine with it if they can be added with an OXP, wouldn't be hard to modify killit to make a new one.

I'm sure there'll be a E-bomb OXP after the patch is released, If not I'll make one, it's a relatively simple task.
If this is the only way we can retain it, then I'll agree. But I won't like it, and won't upgrade to 1.74 until the OXP is ready.

But it will need to work the same.... ie not be a pylon weapon!
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Gimi wrote:
drew wrote:£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
Cheers,
Drew.
Maybe you could start a Kickstarter Campaign to found your £4500 pledge. 8)
Thanks to Gimi, I got an eBook in my inbox tonight (31st May 2014 - Release of Elite Reclamation)!

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Post by JazHaz »

Disembodied wrote: Elite is an all-time classic game, but it wasn't perfect. It was probably as close to perfect as the time and technology allowed, but things can always be made better. Personally, I think the witchspace malfunction / Thargoid ambush could do with being fixed in the core game. It's a great feature until the first time you manage to heroically defeat your foes, only to find out that you're stuck there, ha ha, quit out and start again
In some versions of Elite, a while after you enter the witchspace realm, you'd get a message saying that your drive malfunction is fixed and you could hit H again and continue your hyperspace. Can't remember the exact message but that was essentially what happened.
JazHaz

Gimi wrote:
drew wrote:£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
Cheers,
Drew.
Maybe you could start a Kickstarter Campaign to found your £4500 pledge. 8)
Thanks to Gimi, I got an eBook in my inbox tonight (31st May 2014 - Release of Elite Reclamation)!

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