On energy bombs

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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JazHaz
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Post by JazHaz »

I've created a poll on this subject. See here: http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=99441.

You have 30 days to register your opinion.

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Zbond-Zbond
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Post by Zbond-Zbond »

Lucidor wrote:If you are about to get killed you still have the option to flee, drop a q-bomb or witchspace. All much more rewarding than hitting tab and walk away.
comment: if you are a new Jameson just getting used to your cobra and desparate for docking computers, you don't really have those options because you'll be killed during countdown if you witchspace & will not have enough fuel to flee. You will certainly not be able to afford a Qmine.

It seems that if I start a Jameson in strict play, it is not possible to load that commander in unrestricted mode.

That means that a commander would "learn the ropes" as a Jameson in strict play (with an e-bomb available) (and a nav. buoy). Once proficient, a new game in unrestricted mode would be started (with OXP's available).
Last edited by Zbond-Zbond on Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cmd. Cheyd
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Post by Cmd. Cheyd »

If the energy bomb is going to be reduced to OXP status, does that mean OXP's are going to have key-press events so we can activate it? Or does it mean we can somewhat psuedo-do the same thing with a pylon-mounted missile substitute that has to be selected, armed, and then fired?
DaddyHoggie wrote: If they're not there - you can't buy them - even more simples!
There's a difference here. Having something available and choosing not to buy / use leaves the control in the hands of the player. By removing them entirely, you're removing the choice from the player. There is nothing that stops a player from choosing not to buy or use an energy bomb. There is nothing that forces a player to deploy one. It's choice. But you're putting forth an option for a game-play change that forces other players to conform to your view of the universe. Again, I go back to the point I made earlier - Everything that Oolite changes, so far, is to give the player more options, more choices. It improves through addition. If the player doesn't want these things, they can switch to Strict-Mode and it takes those additions away. This proposed change breaks that mold. It makes the strict-mode game have an option or addition that Oolite does not. It adds by subtraction?!? I'm sorry, I don't buy that.

And the energy bomb is not the only discrepancy between players and NPC's. NPC's can have groups that work in (theoretical) coordination. Based on the logic you've presented - That should open the option for multi-player oolite to be a justified feature set. But let's move past that even. The usage of an energy bomb by a player is done when faced against overwhelming odds against an opposition that is collectively engaging the player. A Many vs. One scenario. But since Oolite is a Player-centric game/universe (despite statements to the contrary - there are no battles occuring at Leesti while you're flying around Diso) - there is no One NPC vs. Many Player scenario in which the NPC might deploy an energy bomb. So by all means, we can say they have it, but since the game never presents a scenario where the NPC is facing overwhelming odds from a coordinated attack of Players - They never deploy it.
El Viejo wrote:Any decent combateer has no need of that sort of weapon so I wouldn’t miss them.
Lucidor wrote:E-bombs makes you lazy and takes away excitement from the game.
I have to say, El Viejo and Lucidor, I'm both offended and suprised by this stance. Some of us don't play the game where we just reload from save. Some of us take that cloud of 8 pirates ahead VERY seriously. Yeah, it's 900 credits that puts a crimp in my next trade run, but by gods, I live to see that next run. And I'm no slack-jawed Jameson at the controls. I can hold my own. But many (most) of the time, I'm in a CM3 that may or may not have a forward beam laser yet.

But again - The option to take them away is imposing your view of the universe onto other players. This is entirely unnecessary. If you don't want to have them - Don't buy them. You don't have to worry about NPC's deploying them, as you all have stated. So there's no need to remove them OTHER than the desire to force other players to play YOUR Oolite.

Either leave them in, or make it a option. But please, let me continue to play my in my Ooniverse. I might choose to visit yours sometime, but I don't want to be evicted from mine just because I want bug fixes.

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JeffBTX
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Post by JeffBTX »

Ahruman wrote:
Disembodied wrote:If it was up to me, I'd make your original wormhole reopen somewhere nearby if and when you destroy the last enemy.
How exactly does the presence of hostiles suppress the wormhole?

On the other hand, reopening after a delay and/or some distance away might not be a bad idea.
JazHaz wrote:
Disembodied wrote: Elite is an all-time classic game, but it wasn't perfect. It was probably as close to perfect as the time and technology allowed, but things can always be made better. Personally, I think the witchspace malfunction / Thargoid ambush could do with being fixed in the core game. It's a great feature until the first time you manage to heroically defeat your foes, only to find out that you're stuck there, ha ha, quit out and start again
In some versions of Elite, a while after you enter the witchspace realm, you'd get a message saying that your drive malfunction is fixed and you could hit H again and continue your hyperspace. Can't remember the exact message but that was essentially what happened.
IF this is changed (re: wormhole opens up again after last Thargoid Warship is destroyed); If people don't mind if the community Adds To the story... as long as it sounds like a good consensus...

Maybe in the early days it was ASSUMED to be a malfunction. The Thargoids were developing technology, like everyone else... gradually improving it.

NOW it is known that these "malfunctions" were actually caused by a kind of "WitchSpace Jammer" all along. That's how they "trap" us. After doing some research, we find that we can't completely defeat the jammer... but from fine-tuning our WitchSpace drives, we now insure that the (original) wormhole conduit is "re-established" from our present position after the jammer transmission is interrupted.
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Post by JeffBTX »

(mainly Cmd. Cheyed)... I don't want to use a quote, because I am mainly paraphrasing... "I'm Nodding"... that's what I meant earlier a few posts back by an "informal Cabal" deciding to get rid of Energy Bombs. It looks like this subject WAS NOT as thoroughly discussed as it should have been.

I wouldn't be suprised if a relative newbie (like myself) clamors to leave the Energy Bomb in. But there are obviously more then a few old-timers that want it left in also; or at least make it easy and painless to re-enable, and have it work as it should (or did, before it was taken out).
Sword, thy name is Cobra. And Cobra has fangs!

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Zbond-Zbond
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Post by Zbond-Zbond »

Can't you hit "H" and continue your journey anyway?

..or "G"

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JeffBTX
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Post by JeffBTX »

Zbond-Zbond wrote:Can't you hit "H" and continue your journey anyway?

..or "G"
Yes, but someone suggested that the wormhole open up again. It's an interesting idea. IF implemented, I just offered an explanation... thats all.
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Post by JazHaz »

Zbond-Zbond wrote:Can't you hit "H" and continue your journey anyway?

..or "G"
I'm assuming you are discussing what happens when you get a drive malfunction and end up in Witchspace....

Well to answer your question.... in certain versions of Elite the answer was no, not straight away. Its a drive malfunction and you can't move on until it is fixed, which takes a while. 5 minutes or so I think....
JazHaz

Gimi wrote:
drew wrote:£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
Cheers,
Drew.
Maybe you could start a Kickstarter Campaign to found your £4500 pledge. 8)
Thanks to Gimi, I got an eBook in my inbox tonight (31st May 2014 - Release of Elite Reclamation)!

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JazHaz
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Post by JazHaz »

JeffBTX wrote:(mainly Cmd. Cheyed)... I don't want to use a quote, because I am mainly paraphrasing... "I'm Nodding"... that's what I meant earlier a few posts back by an "informal Cabal" deciding to get rid of Energy Bombs. It looks like this subject WAS NOT as thoroughly discussed as it should have been.

I wouldn't be suprised if a relative newbie (like myself) clamors to leave the Energy Bomb in. But there are obviously more then a few old-timers that want it left in also; or at least make it easy and painless to re-enable, and have it work as it should (or did, before it was taken out).
I'm a relative newbie, only found Oolite in September 2009. It probably was discussed before I arrived.

But I am an old-timer, having played the original BBC Disk version, the Spectrum version, the Atari ST version, Frontier, Elite:TNK, and now Oolite. This should qualify me to vote that nothing that was in any of these games should be taken away.

Removing an original component, for me, is sacrilege.

In my opinion if you do it then you perhaps should drop the name of Oolite and pick a new name, because it won't be Elite any more.
JazHaz

Gimi wrote:
drew wrote:£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
Cheers,
Drew.
Maybe you could start a Kickstarter Campaign to found your £4500 pledge. 8)
Thanks to Gimi, I got an eBook in my inbox tonight (31st May 2014 - Release of Elite Reclamation)!

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Zbond-Zbond
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Post by Zbond-Zbond »

oh, I didn't mean the storyline - I meant reopening a wormhole is what happens when you press "H" (if you are in witchspace) because the engine malfunction is caused by the Thargoids, not by a faulty engine

it would need energy to reopen, and that energy comes from fuel

however a thought occurs to me that IF gal. H-space = fitted THEN its fuel could be used to run the normal witchspace engines and reopen a wormhole to the original destination (in a no fuel situation)

none of that has much to do with the topic, though..

here is a sentence that is:

After e-bombing, especially as a penniless commander with few defences, the outcome is not altogether blissful as the thing is a one-bang-only weapon and more pirates appear very soon; at best it buys the novice commander a bit of time - and more experienced operators often fly higher specified vessels (w/o e-bomb capability).

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Post by JazHaz »

Zbond-Zbond wrote: After e-bombing, especially as a penniless commander with few defences, the outcome is not altogether blissful as the thing is a one-bang-only weapon and more pirates appear very soon; at best it buys the novice commander a bit of time - and more experienced operators often fly higher specified vessels (w/o e-bomb capability).
Yes that's right, you only ever got one at a time. It gave you time to recover your shields. If you then got destroyed by the second lot of pirates that was always the risk.
Cmd. Cheyd wrote:NPC's can have groups that work in (theoretical) coordination. The usage of an energy bomb by a player is done when faced against overwhelming odds against an opposition that is collectively engaging the player. A Many vs. One scenario.
And then there were always some ships that would survive an energy bomb. Thargoids often would survive, although Thargons didn't.

Sometimes an energy bomb is useful to cut down the sheer numbers of NPCs that are attacking you. It may not clear out all of the ships, but can help you in that situation.
JazHaz

Gimi wrote:
drew wrote:£4,500 though! :shock: <Faints>
Cheers,
Drew.
Maybe you could start a Kickstarter Campaign to found your £4500 pledge. 8)
Thanks to Gimi, I got an eBook in my inbox tonight (31st May 2014 - Release of Elite Reclamation)!

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Post by Hawk »

Would it be possible to have it in the options to disable/enable e-bombs in unrestricted play? That was the people who think it should be part of the game can have it, and those who don't want to be tempted to use it don't have it available.

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Post by another_commander »

Cmd. Cheyd wrote:But since Oolite is a Player-centric game/universe (despite statements to the contrary - there are no battles occuring at Leesti while you're flying around Diso) - there is no One NPC vs. Many Player scenario in which the NPC might deploy an energy bomb. So by all means, we can say they have it, but since the game never presents a scenario where the NPC is facing overwhelming odds from a coordinated attack of Players - They never deploy it.
Now this is just plain wrong. It is obvious that Oolite is very much not a player-centric game and I am surprised reading the contrary from an experienced player. You don't have to be able to see what's going on at Leesti when flying around Diso to note that, just look at the battles taking place in the distance when you are in any system. Events are taking place in the vicinity of, as well as away from the player and totally independently of the player's actions too.

As for the theory that NPCs don't use the energy bomb because they don't get a chance to do it, I am not convinced at all. Of course there is no one NPC versus many players scenario, Elite is about the lone trader in space, not the wingman in a fighting group. And although you cannot find a lone NPC vs many players situation, you will certainly find - and most of us have already witnessed it - a lone pirate against a group of Vipers or Thargoids ripping it apart, often with the aid of the player themselves. No bombs there, ever. In fact, there is not even need to come up with ficticious reasons why NPCs don't use bombs, it's plain and simple: In the code, NPCs do not have energy bomb, period. They use q-mines in the cases where an energy bomb would be deployed.

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Post by aegidian »

I can see the argument for removing the Energy Bomb. Yes, it is a big cheat button / get out of jail free card that NPCs simply don't have and as such is messes with the 'realism' of the game.

However, it was part of Elite and is part of the original game play, and judging if or when to use it in a furball is part of the game side of playing Elite.

And yes, I wrote the q-bomb in as an NPC available alternative.

Still, I'm not sure about this one.

I'd prefer, I think if removing the energy bomb was left for Oolite 2. There are many uber-ships in OXPs with multiple lasers that I would usually save an Energy bomb for, so removing the energy bomb to strict mode would remove an enjoyable part of play for me.
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Post by Chrisfs »

Poro wrote:
JazHaz wrote:Energy bombs are an essential equipment item for many commanders.
Really? Really though? I'm struggling to think of a situation where I would find them "essential". Sure, they're good for bumping up your kill number if you force a mis-jump into deep space to find Thargoids - but beyond that?

Is it when you are severely outnumbered by pirates that you use them?
Severely outnumbered, or I confess accidentally mis-jump. It's a good thing to have as an emergency backup.

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