On energy bombs

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Post by another_commander »

aegidian wrote: I'd prefer, I think if removing the energy bomb was left for Oolite 2. There are many uber-ships in OXPs with multiple lasers that I would usually save an Energy bomb for, so removing the energy bomb to strict mode would remove an enjoyable part of play for me.
I can certainly understand using the energy bomb in cases like the one you describe, but in this case I have to note that the only uber ships in existence are OXP ones. Therefore, I think it makes even more sense to have the e-bomb as an OXP equipment. From my point of view, I don't see why the core game needs to contain equipment that caters for unbalanced (see uber) OXP ships. If one wants to install uber ships, they can also install uber countermeasures.

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Post by Chrisfs »

I am firmly in favor of keeping the E bomb. Removing a feature is generally a bad idea to me. While I see the argument that NPCs can't use it, I agree much more with Cheyd's statement that ( points to the contrary notwithstanding), the game (any game) is player centric, in that it's the player's enjoyment that counts. If I want to start with an adder, a pulse laser and nothing, that's fine, if I want to start with a hacked SuperCobra that's invincible, that's fine too. Someone else's idea of what makes one lazy or is unfair shouldn't matter in as so far as the game can handle both scenarios. And right now, it can. By removing it, you are restricting the way you can play it. Not expanding.

Saying that it can be added back as a OXP makes no sense to me.
Why take the time to edit something out of the core and then more time to code it back in as an OXP(perhaps imperfectly),
Why not leave it in and people who don;t want it, don't have to buy it.
Wouldn't this route, be easier and much less prone to inadvertent bugs ?

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Post by JeffBTX »

I have to say this, for what it is worth...

I JUST got around to completing the second Oolite Native Mission ("Hunt Da Yellow Wabbit in Galaxy Two", the first being Trumbles). I've been playing (experimenting) with OXPs and working on my own HUD(s) so much that it slowed my potential progress down.

I have been keeping serialized backup games... \0001 = just after fully outfitting my Cobra Mk III, \0002 = my "stepping off" point for that 2nd mission (255 kills), \0003 = JUST BEFORE the encounter...
There is a textfile with sections on each archive giving details (present location, credits, kills, equipment, comments etc).

Anyway... I was close to "preparing" for this yesterday afternoon (before \0002), when I noticed this thread (I probably noticed it before, but it didn't really catch my eye). I decided to get rid of my energy bomb, in keeping with what is being planned for 1.74 (or actually done, apparantly, rather than planned). When I made the \0002 archive, the comments include:

"EQUIPMENT:
Removed the 1x Passenger Berth; 35 tons of cargo space is available.
Energy bomb disposed of (by using it against pirates); apparantly in Oolite 1.74+ there will be no energy bombs."

... now there was some trepidation there. I read forum posts on that mission. There WERE comments like "As soon as you fire a missile at him, he jumps. Just press TAB".

I did the mission just fine with lasers... like I always have.

Earlier I mentioned that I have YET to use an Energy Bomb, or even so much as ONE missile. I find that in a fairly short time I can determine which pirate in a pack of them is the fastest... who is 2nd fastest... etc. I draw them out 1 at a time, if necessary. Give them a chase and then "Cat and Mouse" them, it's fun.

But this is not an arguement AGAINST Energy Bombs. Conceivably, I might arrive in a system after a 6.8 or 7 LY jump (leaving nothing for injectors), and find myself surrounded by 10+ pirates (you never know). It's just that hasn't happened yet, and so far I've been able to consistantly pull through (after my first few days of practice).

The vote is somewhat close as of *this* posting. Close to evenly divided. That leaves a couple of concepts: (1) It is in the original core (2) Player freedom; freedom to make choices.

I want to point out that people AGAINST taking out Energy Bombs have sited various reasons. The most sited and consistant arguement FOR taking them out is "I might be tempted".
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Post by Captain Tylor »

Never felt comfortable using the energy bomb. Always thought of it as something from the game asteroids.

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Post by Cmdr James »

I agree with Captain Taylor. It doesnt "fit".

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Post by lfnfan »

I agree with Captain Taylor, Captain Tylor, and Cmdr James.

I also find appealing the 'clean' logic of an Ooniverse where a NPC can have access to any kit that a Player can have access to, no carve-outs.

If you want to draw on sources, I would argue that Status Quo is more relevant canon for Oolite than The Dark Wheel Edit: i.e. Q-Mines are more relevant to the Ooniverse than Energy Bombs are (Drew has stated his view(s) already).
Last edited by lfnfan on Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Detailed counter proposal.

Post by aegidian »

Given:

1. The energy bomb does not fit the 'simulation' aspect of Oolite.
2. It is appreciated by many as part of the 'game' aspect of Oolite.
3. Oolite emulates Elite. Oolite 2 probably will not, so much.

Proposal.

1. The Energy Bomb is not part of Oolite 2.
2. The Energy Bomb is retained in Oolite 1.xx.
3. The consequences of using the energy bomb should reflect its nature as a jury-rigged weapon of last resort. Viz, it should cause damage to all engine related aspects of the craft, damaging or destroying extra energy units, the fuel injectors, the fuel scoops and consuming all remaining fuel as well as reducing energy levels to within 2% of zero.
4. It should only be available to purchase at systems where a suitably high tech level meets a suitable barbaric government system (ie. Communist or lower)

That, IMO, would make the use of the energy bomb more realistic, and make it less of a cheat.

Possibly even:

5. Allow NPCs use of an energy bomb in very rare occasions, when not in range of the player (still a special case, but less so then the current scheme.


Jens? Can I persuade you (twists arm very, very gently.)
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Post by DaddyHoggy »

As the energy bomb is (effectively - unless Giles pleas to Jens are listened too) out of Oolite as of the next version then could Ahruman (or somebody) also knock up the equivalent E-bomb.oxp (kind of killit-jnr) and release it at the same time - that way advocators of the E-bomb can still have theirs and also live with the joyous knowledge that they can be flying along and be 'vaped by a desperate NPC trader off in the distance when it triggers its own E-bomb (rather than a q-mine).

Then we could have a little arms race - of oxp makers creating also sorts of exotic anti-e-bomb kit (e-bomb distruptors, shield tuning, engine-overload protectors, etc.)

As an aside, I find it quite strange that people are claiming that removing the e-bomb will make Oolite non-Elite - we're kidding right - unless you play in strict mode - Oolite is already so non-Elite it's not even funny to claim otherwise - and it's not just the deep underlying issue of no longer being player-centric but the ability to buy different ships, trade with different stations and hundreds of bits of kit that wasn't even conceived of (or written about in Elite literature of the time or since) in the original Elite.

Why is nobody complaining that fuel tanks, or docking with a Seedy Spacebar or a mega-profitable cargo run in your Anaconda, to name but three at random, is anti (non)-Elite?

I don't use them, so I won't miss the E-bomb, and if it can be oxp'd back in immediately then what's the problem (other than your own moralising about "I bought one because they were in the original game and it's canon if you want an ironass").

Genuinely confused as to why this is unexpectedly such a huge issue (it's nearly as odd as the big ship fuel debate).
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Post by Disembodied »

DaddyHoggy wrote:Genuinely confused as to why this is unexpectedly such a huge issue (it's nearly as odd as the big ship fuel debate).
Although I'm in favour of the decision to remove e-bombs, I can see that there is a qualitative difference: everything else is an addition to the Elite core, whereas this is removing something. Personally, I think it's removing something which has never really fitted, something jarring that just can't be explained away; something that, when used, breaks the illusion and mars the playing experience. Like the no-escape witchspace Thargoid ambush, the energy bomb is, in retrospect, a bad piece of game design which we've inherited from the original.

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Post by Kaks »

One thing that could be doable is to have e-bombs available in 1.74, but only in strict mode, while replacing them with q-bombs in unrestricted mode.

How does that sound?

PS:
DaddyHoggy wrote:(it's nearly as odd as the big ship fuel debate)
Speaking as the person who unwittingly started that particular debate, I'm really flummoxed by that one too!
Hey, free OXPs: farsun v1.05 & tty v0.5! :0)

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Post by Thargoid »

The only problem I personally have with such a replacement is that for a newer player (in a slower ship and/or without fuel injectors, or indeed without fuel) then the Q-bomb can be too deadly to the player. If you can't outrun the thing then you're dead anyway.

For me the E-bomb was always a "nice" weapon of last resort for such a player as they don't need to outrun the damn thing. Yes it is slanted to the player's advantage compared to NPCs, but the whole game has a built-in slant the other way anyway (with players getting targetted in preference to NPCs by bad guys) so it's not all good for the player anyway.

Coding up an e-bomb OXP would be quite simple, and indeed would offer a way to "improve" it a bit by making it range dependent (damage done dropping with distance from the player) and by having it do some damage to the player ship too, again at random chance. The only things it of course couldn't do is use the tab key and not require a pylon.

Personally I think I'll miss the thing (says he who normally only uses them by mistake by leaning on the tab key when I'm trying to press something else in that area of the keyboard) from its historical viewpoint.

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Post by ClymAngus »

Aw man, the energy bomb got me out of a very nasty plot situation in Rise of the Kirin.

Toned down, maybe. Specialised possibly. Ranged into a medly of possible more minor area effect weapons? Sure. But total removal? Its canon!

If you remove it I would expect at the very least an oxp so people can replicate ORIGINAL elite. Should they want to.

I do have to say, and please don't think that this is in anyway pointing fingers here (I just find it quite amusing is all). But after seeing several conversations stopped by the canon card, to then go and snap a chunk of it off without first musing possible inclusive ways around the problem, cuts a light wiff of hypocracy. I think there is room to take an original but unbalancing game element and adapt it to better serve game balance, instead of just ripping it out.

Ok so creating the variables to allow a selection of bomb typed would be annoying (and less easy than "highlight, delete") but can we at least entertain the idea?

On thinking about it, it doesn't really matter, if you take it out we'll just design an oxp that puts the little fella right back in again. As it seems from the board there will be a fair few bright souls willing to chip in with some good expantion ideas. Hell I'll even host it. Socialism at its best. :D
Last edited by ClymAngus on Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Cmdr James »

I believe energy bombs still exist in strict mode.

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Re: Detailed counter proposal.

Post by Selezen »

aegidian wrote:Given:

1. The energy bomb does not fit the 'simulation' aspect of Oolite.
2. It is appreciated by many as part of the 'game' aspect of Oolite.
3. Oolite emulates Elite. Oolite 2 probably will not, so much.

Proposal.

1. The Energy Bomb is not part of Oolite 2.
2. The Energy Bomb is retained in Oolite 1.xx.
3. The consequences of using the energy bomb should reflect its nature as a jury-rigged weapon of last resort. Viz, it should cause damage to all engine related aspects of the craft, damaging or destroying extra energy units, the fuel injectors, the fuel scoops and consuming all remaining fuel as well as reducing energy levels to within 2% of zero.
4. It should only be available to purchase at systems where a suitably high tech level meets a suitable barbaric government system (ie. Communist or lower)

That, IMO, would make the use of the energy bomb more realistic, and make it less of a cheat.

Possibly even:

5. Allow NPCs use of an energy bomb in very rare occasions, when not in range of the player (still a special case, but less so then the current scheme.
Word of God?

FWIW I agree with Giles. I think the EB should remain in Oolite since Oolite is, at its heart, a recreation of Elite with better graphics and more facility for user mod. I don't feel anything should be removed. However, I do agree with the fact that it is way overpowered and the consequences of its use should be a little more extreme.

The very name "Energy Bomb" lends itself well to Giles' idea about depleting the energy reserves almost to nothing. It would also be a mechanism to promote caution in using it. If there's a chance that another ship would survive the bomb (as Thargoids do) then the player has to weigh up the chance that a surviving enemy ship would only need to score one hit to destroy the player. It would certainly drop it a little below the "get out of jail free" status it currently enjoys. Making it DARNED hard to buy also adds some balance.

Anyway, my rationalisation for why the EB doesn't destroy the player ship: the bomb is hard linked to the ship's systems and uses the ship's shield generators as the conduit for the energy to be released. As such, the energy is emitted through the shield grid on the hull of the ship and is emitted outwards, leaving the player safe in the "eye of the tornado" as it were.

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Re: Detailed counter proposal.

Post by ClymAngus »

Selezen wrote:
aegidian wrote:Given:

1. The energy bomb does not fit the 'simulation' aspect of Oolite.
2. It is appreciated by many as part of the 'game' aspect of Oolite.
3. Oolite emulates Elite. Oolite 2 probably will not, so much.

Proposal.

1. The Energy Bomb is not part of Oolite 2.
2. The Energy Bomb is retained in Oolite 1.xx.
3. The consequences of using the energy bomb should reflect its nature as a jury-rigged weapon of last resort. Viz, it should cause damage to all engine related aspects of the craft, damaging or destroying extra energy units, the fuel injectors, the fuel scoops and consuming all remaining fuel as well as reducing energy levels to within 2% of zero.
4. It should only be available to purchase at systems where a suitably high tech level meets a suitable barbaric government system (ie. Communist or lower)

That, IMO, would make the use of the energy bomb more realistic, and make it less of a cheat.

Possibly even:

5. Allow NPCs use of an energy bomb in very rare occasions, when not in range of the player (still a special case, but less so then the current scheme.
Word of God?

FWIW I agree with Giles. I think the EB should remain in Oolite since Oolite is, at its heart, a recreation of Elite with better graphics and more facility for user mod. I don't feel anything should be removed. However, I do agree with the fact that it is way overpowered and the consequences of its use should be a little more extreme.

The very name "Energy Bomb" lends itself well to Giles' idea about depleting the energy reserves almost to nothing. It would also be a mechanism to promote caution in using it. If there's a chance that another ship would survive the bomb (as Thargoids do) then the player has to weigh up the chance that a surviving enemy ship would only need to score one hit to destroy the player. It would certainly drop it a little below the "get out of jail free" status it currently enjoys. Making it DARNED hard to buy also adds some balance.

Anyway, my rationalisation for why the EB doesn't destroy the player ship: the bomb is hard linked to the ship's systems and uses the ship's shield generators as the conduit for the energy to be released. As such, the energy is emitted through the shield grid on the hull of the ship and is emitted outwards, leaving the player safe in the "eye of the tornado" as it were.
Damn straight, there are 101 ways to stop willy nilly energy bomb usage. Chalk the cost up to half a mill. Make it fry the players shields and random equipment. Dissipate the damage done at father range. Make it a pirric victory instead of a white wash. (sorry getting lightly riled by this.)

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