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Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:15 am
by Chrisfs
net version?

Are you removing energy bombs from the game completely?

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:45 am
by another_commander
Chrisfs wrote: Are you removing energy bombs from the game completely?
Yes. In 1.74, energy bombs will not exist anymore, except in strict mode. Any existing ones will be converted to q-mines or result in a refund, if you are out of free pylons. However, the insta-death-for-everyone-but-me thing is gone.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:35 pm
by Cmd. Cheyd
Since this was an element of the original core game, could this be made as a game option rather than being relegated to strict-only mode? Most of what I have seen you guys do with strict/non-strict is expand and add options / functions / etc in the non-strict. I've not seen a game feature removed from normal play but allowed in strict before. Maybe it has happened, but it seems a little contradictory (not to mention counter-intuitive).

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:42 pm
by JazHaz
another_commander wrote:
Chrisfs wrote: Are you removing energy bombs from the game completely?
Yes. In 1.74, energy bombs will not exist anymore, except in strict mode. Any existing ones will be converted to q-mines or result in a refund, if you are out of free pylons. However, the insta-death-for-everyone-but-me thing is gone.
I think that this is a big mistake!

I for one, will NOT be upgrading to 1.74 now.

Energy bombs are an essential equipment item for many commanders.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:01 pm
by Lucidor
You can use Killit instead. Slightly more expensive though, but I'm sure you can easily fix that.

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Killit_OXP

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:23 pm
by Poro
JazHaz wrote:Energy bombs are an essential equipment item for many commanders.
Really? Really though? I'm struggling to think of a situation where I would find them "essential". Sure, they're good for bumping up your kill number if you force a mis-jump into deep space to find Thargoids - but beyond that?

Is it when you are severely outnumbered by pirates that you use them?

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:39 pm
by Cmd. Cheyd
Just one example, but I frequently play "Ironman" characters where they deleted upon a single death. Running into a mass of 10 pirates (which has happened more than you'd think), it can be vital equipment. When playing in that environment, energy bombs make for a good purchase (shortly after beam lasers and fuel injectors).

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:09 pm
by JensAyton
JazHaz wrote:I think that this is a big mistake!

I for one, will NOT be upgrading to 1.74 now.
I’m sorry to hear it.
Since this was an element of the original core game, could this be made as a game option rather than being relegated to strict-only mode?
No. “Make it an option” should always be the last resort, not a get-out-of-making-design-decisions-free card. I may make it possible to reintroduce it through an OXP. (Actually, this should already work trivially in trunk, except that energy bombs in saved games will still be replaced.)
Cmd. Cheyd wrote:Just one example, but I frequently play "Ironman" characters where they deleted upon a single death. Running into a mass of 10 pirates (which has happened more than you'd think), it can be vital equipment. When playing in that environment, energy bombs make for a good purchase (shortly after beam lasers and fuel injectors).
I, for one, would argue that a game with an energy bomb is no iron man game at all. If you feel differently, you can always hack the price of the KillIt™ Superweapon, which is essentially the same thing but priced to reflect how ridiculously game-unbalancingly über it is. (On the other hand, you can have more than one Superweapon.)

It’s true that the energy bomb is an original Elite thing. On the other hand, it is also true that it is an awful piece of game design. It’s ridiculously overpowered, couldn’t possibly be used by NPCs, can be used to avoid missions that are supposed to be difficult combat and in general might as well be renamed the Big Cheat Button. In addition, people get confused with energy bombs and Q-mines implementing ostensibly the same concept in completely different ways.

Q-mines, however, are a far more balanced implementation; they’re harder to deploy effectively (but not very hard), they can be evaded if you spot them in time (and therefore can be used by NPCs), and they achieve the basic objective of killing everything in a quite large radius.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:19 pm
by drew
I'm in two minds here.

On the 'nay' - Energy bombs were clearly put in 'Elite' as a sort of 'smart bomb' rather like the original arcade games such as 'Defender' sported. A 'get out of jail free card'. They are ridiculously 'uber', NPCs can't use them etc etc.

On the 'yay' - They are in the original Elite, and in 'The Dark Wheel' too, removing them seems like rewriting history and gives the fiction writers a headache in rationalising them away - might make for a story though...

Cheers,

Drew.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:30 pm
by JeffBTX
ditto (being of two minds).

I noticed this thread at it's inception, and it bothered me at first, and it still does.

The idea and reasons for getting rid of Energy bombs; allowing Q-Bombs... I kind of agree with that and there is no doubt that there is a balancing factor.

But getting rid of Energy Bombs... when they were a part of the original core game? How often is a suggestion overturned, " ... because that is not canon ...", or " ... because that deviates too much from the core concept ..."?

I think there are too many fans who disagree with it. It seems arbitrary... "Lets get rid of Energy Bombs". It sets a bad precedent. I don't suppose the developers would consider offering a POLL on the subject?

( ... and I have to say that with something so basic, so core, so much a part of the original Elite... that poll should have been offered FIRST before the decision was made ... )

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:46 pm
by JensAyton
JeffBTX wrote:( ... and I have to say that with something so basic, so core, so much a part of the original Elite... that poll should have been offered FIRST before the decision was made ... )
In point of fact, it has been discussed several times in the past. Opinion has been heavily in favour of either removing it or crippling it in some way.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:57 pm
by JeffBTX
... sorry. I missed those discussions. They happened before I registered.

But in such discussions, not everyone, including oldtimers and newcomers alike, are necessarily going to post an opinion, and DIDN'T necessarily post an opinion.

Here we have at least ONE or TWO "oldtimers" opposing the removal.

It isn't up to me of course... and if they are removed, it will not bother me (technically). I've yet to use anything but lasers in game (while seriously playing, as opposed to "experimenting"). I haven't even used so much as one missile. I have my own strategy that seems to always work for "packs of pirates" (so far).

What bothers me is simply: completely removing something that is part of the original core game... when at other times things are NOT done "in the name of sticking to canon". It is inconsistant. Such a thing should be seriously and thoroughly considered.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:07 pm
by pagroove
What about changing the energy bomb in a way that you have to 'load' them with energy (maybe by feul scooping) or in another way. If you load it full then the range is full. In that way you always have to make sure that your energy bomb is loaded with energy.

Or that you have to by energy cells for it?

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:26 pm
by JeffBTX
PAGroove; Again that is NOT canon. And it overly complicates the way a device would (and should) work.

To remove or DRASTICALLY change the way a thing works, when it is based on the core concept, is really pretty serious and should not be based on the opinions of an informal "Cabal". What I'm saying is:
" ... make sure you know what you are doing, and make SURE that the MAJORITY of Elite fans agree ... "

(otherwise, stop rejecting suggestions on the premise that they "are not core" or they "are not canon")

Here is one : "If you don't like Energy Bombs, then don't use them!"

Here is a compromise; for 1.74: Remove Energy bombs from default lists for hardware for sale. If someone wants them so badly, THEN they can hack the savegame (and feel guilty about it) or an OXP could provide them for sale. But NOT ban them via the "Strict Mode". Wrong way to go about it.

EDIT: I had to re-read the thread to make sure that I understood the train of thought correctly. Ahruman: You said that you may make them available via OXP; and that Energy bombs would only be available via Strict Mode (I had that reversed in my initial understanding... sorry). Yes, I would strongly suggest that if E-Bombs are taken out, that OXPs could put them back in.

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:52 pm
by DaddyHoggy
Elite on the 8-bit machines was a relatively ponderous game so dying and restarting could be a bit of a pain - battling your way through an anarchy system - down to your last energy bar - no shields - and then another four blips appear on the screen - you're going to die...

...oh no that's right, you have an Energy Bomb.

Boooooom!

Wait patiently while everything recharges and continue on your way.

Original Elite was player centric - you the player were deliberately the centre of the Universe - the game happened to you.

Oolite (with the exception of Thargoids) is not player centric - and so far any equipment available to the player is also available to the NPC except the Energy Bomb and why - because it's a stupid weapon.

If they did - you'd be flying along - skirting around a big battle off to Port and then suddenly "Press Space Commander" - and why - because a desperate NPC Trader fired his Energy Bomb and you happened to be in range too.

Doesn't sound much like fun to me - and therefore if the NPCs can't have Energy Bomb (because its silly) then neither can we as a player - because that's fair...