miners are not pirate victims

For test results, bug reports, announcements of new builds etc.

Moderators: winston, another_commander, Getafix

User avatar
Wildeblood
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 2161
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:07 am
Location: Western Australia
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Wildeblood » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:53 am

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:...even poor and minimally lawful countries do fight piracy.
For several years the Royal Navy had an explicit policy of not responding to Mayday Pirate Attack calls which they considered to be not proper Mayday calls.

User avatar
Cmdr. Maegil
Sword-toting nut-job
Sword-toting nut-job
Posts: 1294
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: On the mend in Western Africa

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cmdr. Maegil » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:13 am

Wildeblood wrote:For several years the Royal Navy had an explicit policy of not responding to Mayday Pirate Attack calls which they considered to be not proper Mayday calls.
I didn't know that... So, according to the RN, drowning is an emergency worthy of a plea for help (mayday = m'aidez, help me), but armed robbery and potential murder aren't... Interesting! :evil:

In any case, it's also participating in the anti-piracy operations in the gulf of Aden - but I guess it must be only because of pressure from Lloyds, then.

Commander McLane wrote:I'm referring to Oolite's well-defined roles, not to everyday usage of 'miner' or 'scavenger'.
That's just too bad... but it's kind of fitting that a topic on piracy ended up hijacked! :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
You know those who, having been mugged and stabbed, fired, dog run over, house burned down, wife eloped with best friend, daughters becoming prostitutes and their countries invaded - still say that "all is well"?
I'm obviously not one of them.

User avatar
JensAyton
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Grand Admiral Emeritus
Posts: 6657
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Sweden
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by JensAyton » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:36 pm

Commander McLane wrote:I just noticed that ships with primary role "miner" are not pirate victims. Is that intended behaviour? Why shouldn't pirates go after miners?
The fundamental reason is that there used to be a hard-coded ad-hoc test, and when I added pirate-victim-roles.plist I just added the corresponding roles without an intended change of behaviour, then started adding existing OXP roles suggested on the forum.

User avatar
Commander McLane
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Intergalactic Spam Assassin
Posts: 9520
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:08 am
Location: a Hacker Outpost in a moderately remote area
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Commander McLane » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:19 pm

Ahruman wrote:
Commander McLane wrote:I just noticed that ships with primary role "miner" are not pirate victims. Is that intended behaviour? Why shouldn't pirates go after miners?
The fundamental reason is that there used to be a hard-coded ad-hoc test, and when I added pirate-victim-roles.plist I just added the corresponding roles without an intended change of behaviour, then started adding existing OXP roles suggested on the forum.
In other words: pirates never attacked miners or scavengers.

Then the question would be: would we want to change that? As I said above: Giles may have coded it this way in order to prevent untimely deaths of these ships. Rock Hermits don't protect their miners, they only launch defense ships when they get directly attacked themselves. Therefore miners are easy prey. Whenever the populator would spawn a pirate ship close to a Rock Hermit, any launched miner would be killed before the player arrives, resulting in the player rarely seeing miners.

For scavengers it's a little different, because they are more often found around main stations, which are protecting their station ships, and pirates are usually not spawned within the aegis anyway.

Any thoughts on this?

User avatar
SandJ
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1045
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:08 pm
Location: Help! I'm stranded down here on Earth!

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by SandJ » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:28 pm

Commander McLane wrote:Any thoughts on this?
Pirates need ways to sell their stuff and buy fuel without attracting attention. Hermits and miners support this. Hermits need deliveries and miners need a 'side line' to supplement their meagre income so it is in their interest to help the pirates.

Once the miners find something worthwhile, they will become vulnerable to pirates themselves. However, a mining community will quickly form comprising mining machines, and suppliers to the miners such as a Seedy Space Bar. Sine this community now has wealth, it will have aspirations to be legal and decent and good. Hence they will attract bounty hunters, put off criminal sorts and ensure they have damn good defences for themselves.

So it appears to be the existing Oolite setup of lone miners and hermits being let alone by pirates makes sense, and wealthy mining communities (the environs of a Seedy Space Bar) actively putting off pirates also makes sense.

In the RealWorld™, the toerags that steal from cars do not steal from car breakers, they sell to them. And the toerags that steal jewellery do not steal from pawn shops, they sell to them.

Edit: 2nd thoughts. There's toerags then there's the nasty pieces of work, the headcases and the psychos. Normal offenders try to avoid trouble. Fugitives would shoot up miners just for fun.
Flying a Cobra Mk I Cobbie 3 with nothing but Explorers Club.OXP and a beam laser 4 proper lasers for company :D
Dropbox referral link 2GB of free space online + 500 Mb for the referral: good for securing work-in-progress.

User avatar
Cmdr. Maegil
Sword-toting nut-job
Sword-toting nut-job
Posts: 1294
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: On the mend in Western Africa

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cmdr. Maegil » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:44 pm

It seems the thread-jacking served a purpose after all... :wink: :lol:

I think not only the behaviour shouldn't be changed, but it also seems that non-system scavangers should roam the lanes...

We know El Viejo likes to stalk other ships, follow them through wormholes, and observe their activities; maybe a slight modification to anarchies.oxp, in which it would also send salvage gang ships to systems within 7LY of their asteroid bases could add even more to his immersion mode.
You know those who, having been mugged and stabbed, fired, dog run over, house burned down, wife eloped with best friend, daughters becoming prostitutes and their countries invaded - still say that "all is well"?
I'm obviously not one of them.

User avatar
Cody
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Posts: 13652
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Corke's Drift
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cody » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:51 pm

I like it as is, I think... they all seem to fit together somehow.

Am I right in thinking that a pirate, when its hold is full, will change AI and head for the main station?
If so, maybe they should head for the nearest hermit instead... maybe to the next system?

User avatar
Smivs
Retired Assassin
Retired Assassin
Posts: 8408
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:31 am
Location: Disunited Kingdom
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Smivs » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:56 pm

El Viejo wrote:I like it as is, I think... they all seem to fit together somehow.

Am I right in thinking that a pirate, when its hold is full, will change AI and head for the main station?
If so, maybe they should head for the nearest hermit instead... maybe to the next system?
Agreed, leave it alone :)

A pirate with a full hold will jump out to another system if he can. If he can't (small ship with no hyperdrive) he switches to the route1TraderAI, which as you say will normally take him to the main station.
I suppose the problem with sending them to a hermit is that there aren't hermits in all systems.
Commander Smivs, the friendliest Gourd this side of Riedquat.

User avatar
Cody
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Posts: 13652
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Corke's Drift
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cody » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:23 am

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:We know El Viejo likes to stalk other ships, follow them through wormholes, and observe their activities; maybe a slight modification to anarchies.oxp, in which it would also send salvage gang ships to systems within 7LY of their asteroid bases could add even more to his immersion mode.
Assuming that I use OXPs such as Anarchies... which I don't. I'm well enough immersed in the core game (with eye-candy), thanks.
Smivs wrote:the problem with sending them to a hermit is that there aren't hermits in all systems.
Yeah, shame that... I'd like to see hermits in every system.

User avatar
Cmdr. Maegil
Sword-toting nut-job
Sword-toting nut-job
Posts: 1294
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: On the mend in Western Africa

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cmdr. Maegil » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:36 pm

Just for the record, the word "stalk" might have been misused; I wasn't sniping at your way of enjoying Oolite. I'm sorry if it came out badly.

My suggestion only meant to improve the experience for those whom, like yourself (and thus I used you as an example), enjoy taking a pause from money- and kills-grinding and sit back to appreciate the Ooniverse in action...
You know those who, having been mugged and stabbed, fired, dog run over, house burned down, wife eloped with best friend, daughters becoming prostitutes and their countries invaded - still say that "all is well"?
I'm obviously not one of them.

User avatar
Cody
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Posts: 13652
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Corke's Drift
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cody » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:02 pm

Cmdr. Maegil wrote:enjoy taking a pause from money- and kills-grinding and sit back to appreciate the Ooniverse in action...
Exactly this... just watching the game itself can be fascinating.

User avatar
snork
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 551
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:21 am
Location: northern Germany

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by snork » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:11 pm

Commander McLane wrote: Any thoughts on this?
Please keep it as it is.

Having miners adds to my Ooniverse's "realism", I fear with them being pirate victims would practically eradicate them from the game.

Scavengers - are to be seen in action rarely anyway, and in the Aegis only, with cops probably being present.
So any present pirates should rather go for the free cargo, good gain with little risk.

Switeck
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1998
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 11:11 pm

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Switeck » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:18 pm

El Viejo wrote:I like it as is, I think... they all seem to fit together somehow.

Am I right in thinking that a pirate, when its hold is full, will change AI and head for the main station?
If so, maybe they should head for the nearest hermit instead... maybe to the next system?
Smivs wrote:Agreed, leave it alone :)

A pirate with a full hold will jump out to another system if he can. If he can't (small ship with no hyperdrive) he switches to the route1TraderAI, which as you say will normally take him to the main station.
I suppose the problem with sending them to a hermit is that there aren't hermits in all systems.
A compromise is have a pirate with a full hold head for the nearest station, whatever it may be. Unfortunately, this could prove amusing (if you're watching) if the nearest station is a Seedy Space Bar and the pirate is a fugitive. But ultimately, even the main station won't treat a fugitive coming to dock very well either... Then again, conditions in anarchies are somewhat relaxed about what the police Vipers will shoot at.

User avatar
Eric Walch
Slightly Grand Rear Admiral
Slightly Grand Rear Admiral
Posts: 5536
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:48 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Eric Walch » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:03 pm

Smivs wrote:A pirate with a full hold will jump out to another system if he can. If he can't (small ship with no hyperdrive) he switches to the route1TraderAI, which as you say will normally take him to the main station.
I suppose the problem with sending them to a hermit is that there aren't hermits in all systems.
I think this problem is partly fixable in the current 'route1traderAI' by letting it start with a self-check for legal status.

- When clean -> go to planet and the mainStation as now happens.
- When a bounty, go to the nearestStation instead.

However, the command to go to the nearest station (setTargetToNearestStation) is not intended to be used over long distances. It should be called when the ship is already nearby. There might be carriers underway that are closer when using from long distances..

This calls for a new AI command: setTargetToRandomStation. When used it makes a list with all stations within 'desiredRange' that are no carriers and allow npc traffic. Than it selects a random one from that list. I just wrote and tested it with a modified route1traderAI and a desired range of 500 000. Looks good, does not affect clean traders but makes it happen that offender 'traders' regularly dock other stations like rock hermits or constores.
(it also needed the new command setTargetToLastStation to re-find the station he was heading for after a waypoint or attack action.)

Needs a bit more testing though.

User avatar
Cody
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Posts: 13652
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Corke's Drift
Contact:

Re: miners are not pirate victims

Post by Cody » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:35 pm

Eric Walch wrote:Looks good, does not affect clean traders but makes it happen that offender 'traders' regularly dock other stations like rock hermits or constores.
Sounds good, Eric.

Post Reply