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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:32 am 
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Version 0.5

Bugfix for Engine Supercharger (performance grade player ships were getting no benefits).

:arrow: Download here

- - - - -

Version 0.4

Expanded and simplified.

Two new categories for each of the three criteria:

1. Size (very small, small, medium, large and huge)
2. Tech (archaic, low, standard, high and cutting edge)
3. Grade (service, transit, civilian, military and performance)
  • Each grade now has a piece of equipment that is unique to that grade (as large cargo bay was to service grade in previous versions).
  • Removed multiple requirements for the same piece of equipment. Only one criteria now needs to be satisfied for any piece of equipment to be fitted.
  • Non player ships can now be identified according to their ship grade e.g. Adder (service). Military grade vessels are likely to be tougher and performance grades are likely to be faster.
:arrow: Download link: http://wiki.alioth.net/img_auth.php/f/f ... _class.oxz

- - - - -

Updated to v0.3

I hope the following tables will explain the effects concisely:

Image

Image

(Ships listed from low to high tech)

- - - - -


Version 0.2 now available.

Changes include:
  • Ships from other oxps are now also subject to this system.
  • Some reclassifications of ships in anticipation of future additions.
  • Adjusted extra cargo capacities for core ships.
  • Credited Zireael for his cargo based equipment system.
Download here:
:arrow: https://app.box.com/s/bd2ydpa6dw141dgrij5y

Original blurb below...
Quote:
Inspired partly by this, and motivated by this, I've written a very simple oxp to address my own take on equipment allocation amongst the game's ships.

This is a dependency based system rather than a cargo based one, and those dependencies rely largely upon new, possibly hidden pieces of equipment (currently visible in order to illustate workings).

Here's how it (hopefully) works...

Each of the ships in the game is classified according to three criteria, largely based on their In Service dates and descriptions in the Elite manual:

Image

1. Size (small, medium or large)
2. Tech (low, standard or high)
3. Grade (service, civilian or military)

These three criteria are to be reflected in the ships standard equipment as non-breakable, non-visible items.

For example, I've classed the Asp II as a medium, standard, military ship. As such, amongst its standard equipment would be:

Image
  • EQ_MEDIUM_HULL
    EQ_STANDARD_TECH
    EQ_MILITARY_GRADE
So, this ship would be able to fit any equipment available to small and medium, low to standard tech ships, whether it be of service, civilian or military grade (subject to any cargo requirements).

As this is essentially a list of restrictions built around debatable categorisations, it's likely to mean that some favoured combination is unavailable to some players (hey, this is oxp ;-) ) but I have introduced 3 (well, 2 1/2) new pieces of equipment to add some flexibility.
  • Service Re-fit
    Civilian Re-fit
    Military Re-fit
I'll try to illustrate how they work with two different ships: the Cobra III and the Anaconda.
  • Image
    The Cobra III has been classed as a large, high-tech, civilian ship. As such, it could equip all sorts of things, but not (gasp!) a military laser... But all is not lost. This ship is high enough tech to have a military refit and then be able to use military grade equipment such as the laser. The cost (besides some credits and a lot of time in the shipyard) is that it could no longer have the service re-fit (effectively a new name for the large cargo bay). So, if you want a military spec cobra III, then that's fine, but there's no longer room for that large cargo bay. Only one type of re-fit would be allowed.
  • Image
    The anaconda however, has been classed as a large, standard, service craft. It does have the option of a civilian re-fit, which would enable the use of things like beam lasers and ECM, and so is likely a good investment. Having the civilian re-fit does not however, enable a military re-fit at a later date. Medium tech service craft can only be modified by so much (Ranthe et.al. this might not be for you, unless you tweak it of course...) That doesn't mean that military anacondas couldn't exist, it just means that you couldn't turn the standard model into one c.f. moray and medical moray.
Full details of ship and equipment classifications are included in a readme file within the oxp.


In terms of other oxp equipment, that should be largely unaffected by what is here, operating outside of, but not in conflict with, this oxp.

WARNING: some ships (oxp in particular), may find that several pieces of equipment are removed by this oxp in it's current incarnation.


So it's not quite finished but it should be illustrative of what I have in mind.
I'd be very interested to hear what people think of it.

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Last edited by Redspear on Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:02 am, edited 7 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:47 am 
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Grabbed, seems very well thought out. I'll test it once I have enough money for a military re-fit for a Cobra - how much is that again?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:53 am 
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Hi Zireael.

I set it at 2395 for some reason. I think I was so pleased to finally get it to work that I forgot to review the pricing...
I think it should probably cost more and the cost should probably be proportinal to the size of the ship.

I'm also thinking of making the service refit cargo increase vary with ship size:
Small = 3
Medium = 7
Large =15

That would give a nce consistency with the popular 3TC increase to the adder and also scale up pleasingly with a doubling (+1) by each increase in size.

Thanks for the feedback :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:33 pm 
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After I am done with the Sidewinder and right after that the station, I will take some time to play around with this interesting oxp. Haven't put much game time in Oolite as of lately.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:05 am 
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Thanks dertien, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts as someone who's re-modeled (and re-imagined) the core oolite ships.
Very much looking forward to that station by the way and the sidewinder was always one of my favourites 8) ...

Meanwhile, here's a thought that's been amusing me...

Cobra III stock issue (civilian)
Image

Cobra III service re-fit
Image

Cobra III military refit
Image

Not sure if that would be the right way around but it might be nice if a re-fit was reflected in the ship's appearance.
There are some options outside of Griff's shipset too e.g Ramon's Anaconda as the basic Anaconda service model (with those vulnerable cargo bay doors)?

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:57 am 
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Well, I know for a fact that if you make different ships with different looks (attaching for example different subentities to them) like I did with the HPC cobra pack, where I have a Scavenger, Miner, Hauler, Hauler Sentinel (no LCB), Sentinel and Vanguard Cobra Mk3 variants, that should work for you. For example the scavenger, who has no witchdrive has a "hyperspace_motor = no" line in the shipdata.plist and also visually lacks the rotating witchdrive at the bottom on the model.

That's why I like your idea so much, since I tried to do the same as you but visually. However you have no doubt followed some of the back an forth messaging between me and Cim on the boards to accomplish to a degree what would make the idea work. Yours goes even a little further as it seems that some equipment is only installable by a certain ship class; which in fact I really like, since it gives every range of ship a unique role, with gameplay characteristics. However, it needs to be very carefully balanced, since you're changing the gameplay too. Although possible, It is very hard at the moment to have subentities react correctly to installed equipment. So it's really hard to have ships look differently if associated with a purchase equipment screen. I was playing with the idea to have a look at the specialized cargo oxp written by Cim and convert it to a specialized equipment screen if that would be feasible, instead of writing the whole thing from scratch. But that's a whole other topic and I don't wish to derail yours.

Working with Griff's ships giving your 3 variants different textures per ship would look nice and you can easily make your own based off of the templates he shares on his box account. As the cobra versions look as you portray them here would indeed fit the bill.

This leans on very nicely and is a different approach to the frontier style equipment oxp made earlier by Zireael. Can't really put a time on it, since I am working on another real life project too, but will test it for sure.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:37 pm 
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Quote:
That's why I like your idea so much, since I tried to do the same as you but visually. However you have no doubt followed some of the back an forth messaging between me and Cim on the boards to accomplish to a degree what would make the idea work. Yours goes even a little further as it seems that some equipment is only installable by a certain ship class; which in fact I really like, since it gives every range of ship a unique role, with gameplay characteristics. However, it needs to be very carefully balanced, since you're changing the gameplay too.
Thanks :) and yes, it does need some care as there are potential domino effects such as ship pricing to consider. Not many ships, if any, will be made more powerful by this oxp but several will have less equipment options.
Quote:
So it's really hard to have ships look differently if associated with a purchase equipment screen.
As well as via the F3 screen (with some scripting) another possibility might be via F3F3 (ship market screen) as a cheap ship when you already have it minus the refit.
Complications:
  • would need to carry over the same equipment
    would be good if it maintained the same colour scheme
Quote:
Working with Griff's ships giving your 3 variants different textures per ship would look nice and you can easily make your own based off of the templates he shares on his box account. As the cobra versions look as you portray them here would indeed fit the bill.
That's interesting. The way I currently have it working, not all ships could have all 3 fittings anyway. There are other Griff-ish style ships out there such as [wiki]Staer9's Shipset[/wiki]
e.g. Griff paired with Staer9 models:

Asp II & Asp I
Image Image

Constritor & Bushmaster
ImageImage

Krait & Iguana
ImageImage

Python & Python Cruiser
ImageImageImage

That's all subject to permissions and review of course.
It could be argued that some of those ships are just re-fits anyway (esp. Python Cruiser and Asp II) and then I might just be reinventing the wheel...
Quote:
This leans on very nicely and is a different approach to the frontier style equipment oxp made earlier by Zireael.
Yeah, I should probably give him a credit as his earlier one showed me that you could simply overwrite the equipment.plist, which is funadamental to making the whole thing work.
Quote:
Can't really put a time on it, since I am working on another real life project too, but will test it for sure.
No hurry and thanks :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:11 pm 
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Nearly ready for a 0.2 release of this thing but having a spot of bother trying to overrule the shiplibrary.plist

What I'd like to do is to change each ship's summary to display the three criteria that I've used to define equipment availability e.g. instead of "Heavy Fighter", it might be "Medium, Low-Tech Military".
So, after consulting the wiki I included an edited shiplibrary.plist within the config file of the oxp.

When I try it however, although it does display things as I'd like, it also displays another version of each ship as before i.e. two asps, two adders etc.

Anyone know how I can remove the originals and keep my own (as an oxp solution rather than a personal one)?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:38 pm 
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Quote:
Anyone know how I can remove the originals and keep my own
Unfortunately not practical at the moment, since it's just a list of entries. The text is translatable - you can overwrite the descriptions by overriding e.g. [oolite-ship-library-description-krait] - but the ship categories aren't changeable in the same way.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:25 pm 
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Oh well, no biggie...

Thanks cim.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:38 pm 
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New version available (link in first post).

Main change is that this oxp can now get it's claws into all player flyable ships, whether from the core game or from other oxps.
By editing the scripts, it is possible to classify an individual ship however you like (Large, High, Military will likely give you access to all equipment without restrictions). I plan to make this process easier in the next version.

There is a risk that some purchased (or even advertised) equipment may be removed from a ship.

Hope you like it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:01 pm 
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Now that New Lasers.oxz is coming along I thought I might revisit this thing and remove the laser restrictions.

It could do with a tidy-up to and I thought it might be clearer if just one ship occupied any of the 27 possible roles.
So using the default ships and some from Griff's oxps (same style after all)...
Quote:
Listed from low tech to high tech (with inservice dates in parenthesis).

Service, small: _____ Transporter (2500) --- Adder (2914) --- Worm (3101)
Service, medium: __ Bug (?) --- Moray (3028) --- Griffin (?)
Service, large: _____ Anaconda (2856) --- Boa (3017) --- Boa II (?)
Civilian, small: _____ Gecko (2852) --- Gnat (?) --- Mamba (3110)
Civilian, medium: __ Cobra I (2855) --- Krait (3027) --- Fer de Lance (3100)
Civilian, large: _____ Python (2700) --- Ophidian (?) --- Cobra III (3100)
Military, small: _____ Viper (2762) --- Sidewinder (2982) --- Viper Interceptor (?)
Military, medium: __ Asp (2878) --- Wolf (?) --- Constrictor (?)
Military, large: _____ ?(?) --- Griff Boa (?) --- ?(?)
And now similar for the equipment...
Quote:
Listed from low tech to high tech (unlisted equipment, including lasers, is available to all ships as normal).
Service, Civilian and Miltary refits not included here.

Service, small: _____ n/a --- docking computers --- wormhole scanner
Service, medium: __ fuel scoops --- n/a --- n/a
Service, large: _____ shield boosters --- n/a --- n/a
Civilian, small: _____ fuel injectors --- S.T.E. --- n/a
Civilian, medium: __ galactic hyperdrive --- navigation array --- n/a
Civilian, large: _____ n/a --- n/a --- n/a
Military, small: _____ M.T.S. --- military shields --- n/a
Military, medium: __ T.S.M.E. --- I.T.S. --- n/a
Military, large: _____ n/a --- n/a --- n/a
That gives one ship per category, 4 extra pieces of equipment per grade (service, civilian or military) and any increase in a category has an advantage e.g. the advantage to being a large civilian or miltary vessel is being able to equip shield boosters just like their lower grade counterparts.

The categorisation of ships and equipment isn't perfect but (to me at least) it is clearer this way, less crippling to the lower classes of ships and gives each ship a unique place in the ooniverse... at least until we bring other oxp ships into the picture :mrgreen:

Opinions welcomed.

Edit: Just to be clear, these are propsed changes, no update has been made as yet...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:41 pm 
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I like the way you're thinking, Redspear.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:41 am 
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Though I love the idea of equipment restriction, and variety to the ships that are encountered I do have some scepticism.
restricting the equipment a player can fit might brake the experience of slowly ironassing your ship.
It is the main motivation in the early stages of the game and this might end it too early, killing some of the fan.
Along with the feeling that there is no way you can become a real badass in the ooniverse. (that of course would depend on the balance. it might be the other way around)

furthermore for the player that has to deal with up to 50 enemy ship at the same time, (It has happened to me quite some times lately) not having the maximum possible shielding and recharge rate, just doesn't work. you are going to take a ton of fire regardless of your manoeuvrings or speed, and in order for you to manage to kill one, you need to be able to sustain a lot of pounding while you keep a strait line firing until you actually make enough damage.
Wouldn't that result in the player been restricted to only using the bigger ships?
Or you would have to run away a lot. (it could be interesting :? )
I mean it surely would make things more realistic, And I am always in favour of realism, but totally realistically one ship should be able to fight off maximum let's say 3 enemies, and I don't think we would like to go that far.

The main problem I think has to do with the way npc's shots are calculated. I am not sure, but I suspect, that they don't actually aim, but they miss or hit with a dice roll. So while I straggle to aim the tail of an evading enemy for a few seconds, some other guy is pounding me from behind (that didn't sound right :oops: ) continuously without breaking a sweat. I don't know maybe it is just my impression. (I have to admit though that 1.82 version has changed that a bit)

So a smaller ship will have the small advantage of being a smaller target, with the great disadvantage of not having shield boosters, or naval energy unit.

Of course this is just an oxp and nobody is forced to use it,

But the reason I am writing here is that I would like to use it. it sounds like a good idea. I am just concerned about making small ships less appealing for fighting while normally it should be the other way around. (and I love flying small fast ships :D )

So how would one impose equipment restrictions, since cargo space and money doesn't seem to matter after some time?
one way is what you are doing. Ship classes and categories and tech level
an other way is effecting the manoeuvrability and thrust of the ships and/or max speed (all possible I think in v1.82)
The best I think would be both.

I mean the only way I would to fight a Cobra Mk III with naval energy unit, shield boosters, and mil lasers on a flimsy Krait, would be if it was significantly less agile from my smaller ship. and I do not mean the Krait being more agile, (because after some level it makes aiming more difficult) but the Cobra being a lot less agile.

And agility is something that everyone would really consider when buying equipment.
Now about the equipment taking up space.
An Adder which is the smaller of the jump capable ships has dimensions 28m x 14m x 51m giving it about 20 cubics of space let us say 18 because it is not completely rectangular. if the 1/2 (totally arbitrary and self generated number) is occupied by the jump drives and basic equipment, minus 2 cubics for 2 tons cargo space we are talking about 7 cubics space for extra equipment so yes that is were things are kind of tight.

but a Krait is 94m x 21m x 82m which gives 162 cubics. Because it is shaped like e wedge lets say 81 cubics minus 1/2 for basic equipment/jump drive , = 40 cubics minus 2 cubics for cargo, we have 38 cubics. I think that would be enough for every equipment available in the game, and I am being plentiful

unless there is some flaw in my assumptions :mrgreen:

So how about:
equipment categorised into
basic equipment: like cameras, life support system, fire extinguishing system, scanner, main engines, aviation, jump drive, shield emitters, basic shield generators, energy capacitors, energy generators, pulse lasers, torus drive etc

standard equipment: like fuel scoops, heat shields, fuel injection, extra energy unit, beam lasers, shield boosters etc

extra equipment: you name it
advanced equipment: you name it various oxp equipment

military equipment : like naval energy unit, naval shield enhancement, military lasers, ecm jammer, cloacking device, etc.
(I haven't but much thought in the categorising maybe some equipment could be moved from one to the other. Maybe we could use the effective tech level of the equipment to decide)

ships could then be low medium and hi tech,
with low tech ships only able to fit basic and standard equipment,
mid tech ships able to fit extra equipment
and hi tech ships could fit advanced equipment
military equipment would require a military upgrade, ( a military flag could exist for both ships end equipment)
and maybe a tech upgrade could take a ship one category up (but only one)
(maybe also the ships effective tech level could be a quide)
perhaps some equipment can have standard advanced and military version, (some oxp equipment already do)

finally every equipment would take up some space from the available (calculated with some better method than mine hopefully) or take up some cargo space if there is none available,
and would have some mass to be added to the ships mass,
Which in its turn would cause the ships max roll and max pitch and also the thrust to decrease
edit : Oh oh! and fuel consumption I forgot about fuel consumption ! :P

max speed I dont think that should be effected, because max speed in the vacuum is relevant to the time that force is applied and in my mind it is just calculated by the nav aide to make the ship manoeuvrable with the given trust and roll/pitch .(being able to turn and stop in time)

finally it would be cool if a loaded ship could handle differently than an unloaded . Same affect for cargo and equipment

And of course all that would require a lot of fine tuning to keep some balance



The whole idea of restricting uberification (it is a word honestly :P ) is great.
I would love to check your oxp to have a better idea but it is not easy with a pilot that has already taken over some missions. I would hate to fail people that depend on me :lol: )

Just food for thought. sorry for the long post :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:36 pm 
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Quote:
unless there is some flaw in my assumptions :mrgreen:
and there is :lol: seams that I was a few thousand cubics wrong :oops:

I hadn't realise the scale of things in oolite before. :shock: Soooo ships in oolite are comperable to today's modern tankers.
Meaning than in 3rd millennium technology there is enough space there to fit fusion reactors to power up a Country :shock:

So good luck with that handwavium. I give up! :roll:


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