[WIP] Diplomancy OXP

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

Moderators: another_commander, winston

User avatar
Day
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:35 am
Location: Paris

Re: [WIP] Diplomacy OXP

Post by Day »

New version is in the manager.

The oxp name is now Diplomancy in the manifest used by the manager, thanks to Cholmondely 8) and the good vibe it generated on the thread :wink:

I won't change it in the hidden parts (the code), as it would probably be too invasive, but I'll change it where it's visible.
User avatar
Cholmondely
Wiki Wizard
Wiki Wizard
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:00 am
Location: The Delightful Domains of Her Most Britannic Majesty
Contact:

Re: [WIP] Diplomacy OXP

Post by Cholmondely »

Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm Logo idea added to the backlog, thank both of you :)
There are another 3 versions on the second page of the GalCop logo thread, so you now have a choice!! Another by Montana 05, and one each by Nite Owl and cbr.
Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm Hmm, for those versed in Oolite lore, is it consistent that a galaxies-wide passport system used only by dictator, communist and corporate systems would be implemented by Galcop?
There are the orbital stations - and then there is the planet itself. The systems themselves will decide for the planet itself. For the stations, the accepted view seems to be that they are run by a combination of GalCop and the local system (the local system pays more for more elaborate stations such as a Dodecahedron or a Torus). So I can understand Embassy districts on the Orbitals. And even on dockable liners in the solar system. I don't understand them on Rock Hermits! Or dredgers! Or Strangers World's orbiting lunar laboratories!
Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm Concerning the Wars and alliances maps, you need the ADVANCED_NAVIGATIONAL_ARRAY equipment to display them. I updated the readme.txt to include this bit of info (in the next version).
The related line in the F4 interface is "Star wars" (yes, I dared).
Thank you for that little morsel of information! And if you want to call it Star wars .... !

Again, thank you for this.

I can feel a wish for minor tweaking:
*(visas for every single corporate in The Eight? And for no feudals or democracies at all? Really?
IF it is part of the definition: "feudals are just dictatorships which don't need a visa", "dictatorships are just feudals which do" ... then maybe!)

*(is there really no ability to see visas while in flight?)


But it very definitely adds to my game.
Denizen of the Dark and Dismal Deserts of Digebiti.

Milo wrote Dancing the Gavotte
User avatar
Cody
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Sharp Shooter Spam Assassin
Posts: 14236
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:31 pm
Location: Corke's Drift
Contact:

Re: [WIP] Diplomacy OXP

Post by Cody »

Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:54 pmThe oxp name is now Diplomancy in the manifest used by the manager...
<applauds>
I dreamed I saw the silver spaceships flying, in the yellow haze of the sun
There were children crying and colors flying, all around the chosen ones
All in a dream, all in a dream, the loading had begun
Flying Mother Nature's silver seed to a new home
User avatar
Day
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:35 am
Location: Paris

Re: [WIP] Diplomacy OXP

Post by Day »

Cholmondely wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm
Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm Logo idea added to the backlog, thank both of you :)
There are another 3 versions on the second page of the GalCop logo thread, so you now have a choice!! Another by Montana 05, and one each by Nite Owl and cbr.
Ok, I'll look when I'll work on it :)
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm
Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:43 pm Hmm, for those versed in Oolite lore, is it consistent that a galaxies-wide passport system used only by dictator, communist and corporate systems would be implemented by Galcop?
There are the orbital stations - and then there is the planet itself. The systems themselves will decide for the planet itself. For the stations, the accepted view seems to be that they are run by a combination of GalCop and the local system (the local system pays more for more elaborate stations such as a Dodecahedron or a Torus). So I can understand Embassy districts on the Orbitals. And even on dockable liners in the solar system. I don't understand them on Rock Hermits! Or dredgers! Or Strangers World's orbiting lunar laboratories!
Ah. Yes. Currently embassies are on every station not in anarchy system.
I'm considering putting them only on main stations of galcop allegiance.
a) would it break the way you play, Cholmondely?
b) what do you all think, gameplay-wise and lore-wise?
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm I can feel a wish for minor tweaking:
*(visas for every single corporate in The Eight? And for no feudals or democracies at all? Really?
IF it is part of the definition: "feudals are just dictatorships which don't need a visa", "dictatorships are just feudals which do" ... then maybe!)
So, it has come to this. (Best multi purpose ominous statement ever.)
You're right. Originally, I just wanted something credible which could be coded quickly, and could be improved depending on the wish of players.
Players' wish is explicited.

Hmmm, Corporate is explainable easily enough: they're built around value, which needs security, and captains are security threats. Cataloguing and securizing their moves in the system is a no-brainer requisite.
Dictatorships and communist system have exactly the same need.

All of them? Well yes, the means are easy to implement and deploy; even the smallest systems would be interested in deploying a visa system, especially if it allows them to get free credits.

Now who wouldn't implement a paying visa system? Free-trade zones.
So most multi-government systems, all anarchies.
Feodals could do as they wish.

I could do a procedurally-defined attribution for let's say multi-government systems and feodal systems, something like 20% of them have embassies.
What do you all think?
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm *(is there really no ability to see visas while in flight?)
I didn't see the need, but really you should be able to see them in-flight.
I could implement this easily enough.
User avatar
Cholmondely
Wiki Wizard
Wiki Wizard
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:00 am
Location: The Delightful Domains of Her Most Britannic Majesty
Contact:

Re: [WIP] Diplomacy OXP

Post by Cholmondely »

Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm Ah. Yes. Currently embassies are on every station not in anarchy system.
I'm considering putting them only on main stations of galcop allegiance.
a) would it break the way you play, Cholmondely?
b) what do you all think, gameplay-wise and lore-wise?
Your suggestion makes much more sense to me. It's kind of you to consider the way I play - but don't forget that I'm very much a neophyte in these matters (Having said that, thank you, it would not break the way I play).
Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm
Cholmondely wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:07 pm *(visas for every single corporate in The Eight? And for no feudals or democracies at all? Really?
IF it is part of the definition: "feudals are just dictatorships which don't need a visa", "dictatorships are just feudals which do" ... then maybe!)
So, it has come to this. (Best multi purpose ominous statement ever.)
You're right. Originally, I just wanted something credible which could be coded quickly, and could be improved depending on the wish of players.
Players' wish is explicited.

Hmmm, Corporate is explainable easily enough: they're built around value, which needs security, and captains are security threats. Cataloguing and securizing their moves in the system is a no-brainer requisite.
Dictatorships and communist system have exactly the same need.
Is this really so? Surely any visiting pilot is logged into the system, visa or no visa, passport or no passport. It's all electronic and presumably a bit like the Peoples' Republic of Utopian China will be in a few more years. Spy cameras, facial recognition etc.
Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm All of them? Well yes, the means are easy to implement and deploy; even the smallest systems would be interested in deploying a visa system, especially if it allows them to get free credits.

Now who wouldn't implement a paying visa system? Free-trade zones.
So most multi-government systems, all anarchies.
Feudals could do as they wish.

I could do a procedurally-defined attribution for let's say multi-government systems and feudal systems, something like 20% of them have embassies.
What do you all think?
I think that all would have an embassy sector in their GalCop managed main orbital station - maybe even a proportion of the anarchies (the term is of course quite a loose definition covering a multitude of anarchic possibilities)

•see
(1) the old Elite Flight Manual pp48-9 http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/The_Sp ... ing_Manual
(2) then Carver's Anarchy by Ganelon http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8641 (the middle sections parts 4-5 & 7 describing the country of Rahooran on the anarchic planet of Lasoce in the 2nd Galaxy.
(3) this excerpt from Cim's Ship's Manual (in his Ship's Library.oxp):
Anarchies
An Anarchy system is defined as “a system where no diplomatic relations may be established”, generally due to a complete lack of recognisable government. Again, therefore, formal agreement to the Cooperative treaties is generally missing, though in practice there is often at least a vague acceptance of them by individuals.

Laxeti in Chart 6 is one typical example, where all larger governments have broken down, there is no planetary authority larger than a city, and all attempts to establish diplomatic communications with the Cooperative have failed, even on a multi-government model. Visitors to the planet must arrange their visits separately to each region, and similarly traders wishing to ship goods to the surface must barter carefully in the absence of any currency with worth outside the few hundred square kilometres it originates in.

Maesin in Chart 1 is very different, but the result in space is the same. The original colonists were refugees from a harsh dictatorial system, and came to Maesin with the aim of having no hierarchies, no formal power structures, and no leaders, so that no-one could seize power in the same way. With persistent effort, they have succeeded in doing this, and the planet remains a peaceful voluntary collective of subsistence farmers to this day. Unfortunately, as a consequence, there is absolutely no authority which the Cooperative can deal with, and so the space above the planet is a haven for pirates and other criminals.

Isquinza in Chart 4 is a highly unusual Anarchy. The planetary government is a well-organised corporate dictatorship, well known for the manufacture of Zero-G Hockey sticks and other sporting goods. However, they are also extremely isolationist. Trade is carried out by a few trusted intermediaries, and direct communication between the surface and space is completely outlawed. Most of the facts about the government are only known through extremely careful anthropological research, as it refuses outright to talk to the Cooperative or visitors at all, and only allows the trusted intermediaries to land.


In many of these cases it is presumably GalCop which pays for the orbital station and the insufficient police force (probably only enough to protect the station itself). This all must be paid for through the levies on the trade going through the station. A little income from an embassy sector would be of use to GalCop - the embassies have to pay GalCop for upkeep of the visa-issuing computers, rental of space etc. No?

But whether the anarchies would themselves have embassies elsewhere? Apart from a very, very small proportion ... No!

Having said all this, it would be useful to have the considered opinion of some more people!
Denizen of the Dark and Dismal Deserts of Digebiti.

Milo wrote Dancing the Gavotte
User avatar
Cholmondely
Wiki Wizard
Wiki Wizard
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:00 am
Location: The Delightful Domains of Her Most Britannic Majesty
Contact:

Re: [WIP] Diplomancy OXP

Post by Cholmondely »

Other issues:

The System History screen:
On day 2084025 Anarlaqu declared war on Sotiqu, Vetitice & Inonri. Four days later they made peace with Sotiqu.
Over the next 22 days they made peace with Sotiqu another 15 times! Nothing else happened!

Anarlaqu are feudal humans and Sotiqu are fierce anarchic batrachians. I suppose that it is possible that various of the Grand Dukes of Anarlaqu are making individual peace treaties with each individual anarchic batrachian on Sotiqu ... but is this what you expected?

And, again: there should be a possibility of extending ones' visa inside at least some of the visa-requiring systems - even if it does involve taking the shuttle down to the planet surface!

Sorry to be a pain!
Denizen of the Dark and Dismal Deserts of Digebiti.

Milo wrote Dancing the Gavotte
User avatar
phkb
Commodore
Commodore
Posts: 2746
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:37 pm
Location: [p]laying [h]ard and [k]icking [b]utt somewhere in G7...

Re: [WIP] Diplomancy OXP

Post by phkb »

I'm seeing this error in the log when after I open a saved game that has no Diplomacy data inside.

Code: Select all

04:16:21.382 [script.javaScript.exception.unexpectedType]: ***** JavaScript exception (DayDiplomacy_000_Engine 0.18): TypeError: observersId is undefined
04:16:21.382 [script.javaScript.exception.unexpectedType]:       ../AddOns/Testing.oxp/oolite.oxp.Day.Diplomacy.oxp/Scripts/DayDiplomacy_War.js, line 33.
Starting a new game doesn't generate the error.
User avatar
Day
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:35 am
Location: Paris

Re: [WIP] Diplomancy OXP

Post by Day »

phkb wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:23 am I'm seeing this error in the log when after I open a saved game that has no Diplomacy data inside.

Code: Select all

04:16:21.382 [script.javaScript.exception.unexpectedType]: ***** JavaScript exception (DayDiplomacy_000_Engine 0.18): TypeError: observersId is undefined
04:16:21.382 [script.javaScript.exception.unexpectedType]:       ../AddOns/Testing.oxp/oolite.oxp.Day.Diplomacy.oxp/Scripts/DayDiplomacy_War.js, line 33.
Starting a new game doesn't generate the error.
Thank you phkb, this is indeed a bug. I'll chase it.
User avatar
Cholmondely
Wiki Wizard
Wiki Wizard
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:00 am
Location: The Delightful Domains of Her Most Britannic Majesty
Contact:

Re: [WIP] Diplomancy OXP

Post by Cholmondely »

Day wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 7:45 pm So, it has come to this. (Best multi purpose ominous statement ever.)
Two points:
1) reminder to display days of unexpired visas in an MFD (or on F5/F5F5 page or on relevant F7 page) for easy reference in flight
2) It's taken me a week to realise that the F4 Star Wars screen toggles between 3 different maps (not 2): Wars, Diplomacy & Warring Systems.

If you spelled it out on the first line on the screen it would be much more obvious: Instead of "Display Wars Map"/"Display Diplomacy Map"/"Display Warring Systems Map" you could have "Toggle Warring Systems/Wars/Diplomacy Maps" then "Toggle Wars/Diplomacy/Warring Systems Maps" and finally "Toggle Diplomacy/Warring Systems/Wars Maps". Or some such!

Still excellent OXP! Thank you.

Just been reading the old 2007 thread on the Galactic Navy - and the debates between Cdr McLane, Disembodied, Captain Hesperus et. al. about how dominant GalCop and the Galactic Navy are. It's interesting how the understanding of the Ooniverse has changed over the years (partially due to the loss of the Frontiersmen to E:D).

Oh! And the screen shots are finally up on your wiki page.
Denizen of the Dark and Dismal Deserts of Digebiti.

Milo wrote Dancing the Gavotte
User avatar
Cholmondely
Wiki Wizard
Wiki Wizard
Posts: 681
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:00 am
Location: The Delightful Domains of Her Most Britannic Majesty
Contact:

Re: [WIP] Diplomancy OXP

Post by Cholmondely »

Question: what are the advantages of citizenship?

If all it means is that I have to pay income tax once a year (and get clobbered by the Inonrians when they declare war on poor old Digebiti) ...
Denizen of the Dark and Dismal Deserts of Digebiti.

Milo wrote Dancing the Gavotte
Post Reply