[WIP] New Deal Economies (for Oolite 1.81)

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[WIP] New Deal Economies (for Oolite 1.81)

Post by Vincentz » Wed Apr 15, 2015 2:16 am

Image

Instead of just having 2 economies with various degrees, which tend to be about getting cheap computers at Rich Industrial and selling at Poor Agricultural, and then buying cheap Furs (leaving the middle economies sort of useless), I present 4 types of economies:

First small steps have been taken :D (I honestly don't know if this should be called 0.1 or 1.0 ;))

Download : http://www.mediafire.com/download/ige89 ... ewDeal.oxz
Requires Oolite 1.81.

So far its still in a very primitive stage. Mainly graphical, Changing the names for Economies and Main Export/Import Goods for economies.
I also upscaled the randomness of prices slightly, except for Gold, Platinum and Gems, to make it more interesting, and hopefully to reduce the difficulty a bit, which was otherwise upscaled by the more specific markets.

With (my idea of) explanation (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Economics: (in this version its just the MAIN imports and exports. Trades can be made to different system economies and still be good)

"Financial" Stock markets and business centers
EXPORT : None
IMPORT : Luxuries, Computers, Furs, Gold, Platinum and Gems
"Commerce" Trading and retailing
EXPORT : None
IMPORT : Food, Textiles
"Hi-Tech Industrial" Avanced technical manufacturing
EXPORT : Computers, Alloys
IMPORT : Radioactives
"Industrial" Manufacturing and processing.
EXPORT : Textiles, Machines
IMPORT : Minerals, Liquor/Wines
"Explorational" Biological and Geological resource extraction.
EXPORT : Radioactives, Minerals
IMPORT : Machines
"Prospecting" Mineral surveying and excavation.
EXPORT : Gold, Platinum, Gems
IMPORT : Machines
"Agronomical" Scientific and technical farming and cash crops plantations.
EXPORT : Liqour/Wines, Luxuries
IMPORT : Machines
"Agricultural" Farms, pastures, plantations.
EXPORT : Food, Furs
IMPORT : Machines
Last edited by Vincentz on Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by toto d merchant » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:41 am

Vincentz wrote:Its late and I'm tired, but I wanted this out before I forgot about it.
I know this prolly isnt going to be received all that positively, cos it would be a huge game-changer (literally), but I also think it would make it a lot more interesting.

So instead of having 2 (industrial/agricultural) in different wealths, which regarding commodities influence them on a single level (f.ex. poor agri means lowest food and rich indy means lowest cpu prices), I suggest having 4 (imho) logical systems. They are :

FINANCIAL
(these are strong high tech political centers, imagine New York, London, Washington etc)
INDUSTRIAL
(these are productive, manufacturing systems, imagine Europe in industrial era or China/Asia in modern day)
EXTRACTING /exploratory/prospecting
(these are extracting/excavating resources, imagine areas in Russia, South Africa, Australia where they mine)
AGRICULTURAL
(these are planets with plantations/farms/sea resource harvesters, imagine rural areas with lots of farming)

each of the worlds would have 2 variants :

DEVELOPED
UNDEVELOPED

meaning that the 8 categories which are present now, wouldn't have to be changed (much).
This would allow for lots more variation especially regarding commodities.

Examples :
Financial systems would have .... high tech
Industrial systems would have cheaper machines/alloys/textiles, higher cost for minerals
Extracting systems would have cheaper minerals/radioactives/gold/gems/platinum, higher cost for machinery
Agricultural systems would have cheaper food/liquor/furs, higher cost for machinery

Developed systems would demand more computers/Luxuries (though financial and industrial more than agricultural and extracting)
Undeveloped systems would demand more slaves/firearms but not need computers/luxuries

continuing tomorrow....
your suggestion is being received very positively by those of us who prefer trade to combat.

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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by Day » Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:58 am

I agree that this would benefit from some improvement.
I like the reasoning and the chosen examples.

I think the implementation could be better: the original problem is the number of possibilities is fixed; with this proposition, the number of possibilities would still be fixed.

I don't have a better idea to propose.
Well... Maybe this one:

Each world would have a note from 0 to 10 in different dimensions:
Financial development, industrial, extracting, agricultural, ...
Developed/undeveloped would be removed in favor of the note.
A dimension could be added through oxp. (new possibilities, yay!)
The note could be modified through oxp. (world shaking events, yay!)

What do you think?

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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by Vincentz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:41 pm

I agree it would still be fixed, though not fixed in a linear way. Imho it shouldn't over-complicate things, just add some variation to the Computer (Indu) -> Furs (Agri) trading.
By using the existing system (8 tiered) it could be done very simple yet effective plus adding some immersion along the way:

If, on arrival, a script would detect Economy level, and use the proper commodities.plist (4 different files configured for 2 level difference instead of 1 file with 8 levels), then it might be really simple to do (besides the new Font file and the Text entries for economies it would only contain a single simple script along with the 4 commodities.plist).

A couple of questions :
Q1) When is commodity prices and stock calculated for a system? On arrival?

Q2) Iirc it also stores at saves, is it recalculated after loading?

Q3) Are there other factors that determine commodities other than commodities.plist?

Q4) I vaguely remembered that there one time was a limit TC the station would buy from me from a commodity. I haven't been able to reproduce it though. Was I dreaming?
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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by Norby » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:06 pm

Vincentz wrote:there one time was a limit TC the station would buy from me from a commodity.
127t in all stations and types. The [wiki]SellAll[/wiki] OXP provide an alternative customer in F4 screen if you would like to step over this limit.

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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by Vincentz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:16 pm

Norby wrote:
Vincentz wrote:there one time was a limit TC the station would buy from me from a commodity.
127t in all stations and types. The [wiki]SellAll[/wiki] OXP provide an alternative customer in F4 screen if you would like to step over this limit.
Would it be customizable for separate commodities? I could vision that f.ex undeveloped agricultural low tech systems would have less demands for computers and luxuries.

I looked over comodities.plist but not sure if some of it could be used to reduce the limit.
2&3 seems to always be 0, while 5&6 and 8&9 are always the same. (?)

1. The name of the commodity
2. Units available at a market (this is calculated at each marketplace)
3. Price per unit at a market (this is calculated at each marketplace)
4. The base price per unit MARKET_BASE_PRICE ( base price x 1/4 )
5. An adjustment to price based on the economy MARKET_ECO_ADJUST_PRICE ( price adjust )
6. An adjustment to units availble based on the economy MARKET_ECO_ADJUST_QUANTITY ( quantity adjust )
7. The base quantity available to a market MARKET_BASE_QUANTITY ( base quantity )
8. A 'mask' which defines how the price varies MARKET_MASK_PRICE ( price mask )
9. A 'mask' which defines how the quantity varies MARKET_MASK_QUANTITY ( quantity mask )
10. The unit of quantity (0 == tons, 1 == kilos, 2 == grams) units

( "Food", 0, 0, 19, -2, -2, 6, 1, 1, 0 ),


Edt : ah well, it changed to trade-goods.plist in 1.81, though principle would be the same I guess.
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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by Vincentz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:51 pm

Just a thought :
I'm thinking Financial could be a "gamble"/"stock exchange". So prices would be more random there, indicating that lots of trades are going on in financial centers.
Sort of "a lots of food have been traded during the last 24 hours, so prices were low". So no certainty of low/high prices, but chance of getting a good deals, both for buying but also for selling if the right cargo is in the hold.
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Re: 4 types of worlds

Post by cim » Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:10 pm

Vincentz wrote:Q1) When is commodity prices and stock calculated for a system? On arrival?
For the main station, yes. Secondary stations will have the market generated the first time anything tries to query it (in almost all circumstances the difference between this and "on arrival" is unimportant)

You can in 1.80 onwards edit the price and quantity at a station from JS, however.
Vincentz wrote:Q2) Iirc it also stores at saves, is it recalculated after loading?
Main station and markets for those secondary stations you can save the game at will be stored in the save file and restored from it without recalculation. Markets for unsaveable stations will be regenerated if you load/save and the station is still there.
Vincentz wrote:Q3) Are there other factors that determine commodities other than commodities.plist?
For 1.81, as you've noted below, trade-goods.plist is used instead, combined with more extensive market definitions in the station entries of shipdata.plist. That allows various scripted generation of commodity quantities and prices using any factors you choose, and you can use different factors and rules for different trade goods, systems and/or stations, as well as defining entirely new trade goods. It also removes the 102.0 credit price cap.

Another feature of 1.81 is that you can have as many economy types as you like - though you're still limited to only eight economy icons on the map. Messing around at that fundamental a level would require you to take precautions for OXP compatibility issues, though.
Vincentz wrote:Q4) I vaguely remembered that there one time was a limit TC the station would buy from me from a commodity. I haven't been able to reproduce it though. Was I dreaming?
In 1.80 the limit is 127 units for all goods. Most commonly encountered with the kg/g goods, of course. In 1.81 the limit can vary between stations and commodities. The default is still 127 for the main station, while rock hermits are smaller (and their capacity varies for different types of goods). OXP stations can have markets larger than 127 if required.

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Re: 4 types of system economies

Post by Vincentz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:57 pm

So... how would I move forward on this one?

I imagine I need a script that recognizes the economy level and overrides the trade-goods.plist entries.
I saw theif(system.economy < 3) in Dictators addon, which could come in handy.

Regarding compatibility, I saw some script that waited to execute until after original addon had initialized. Guess I could make .plists for those (with respect for what addon was going for), but some seems to not even have trade-goods.plist yet (Kiota stations) while others have commodities.plist and still working (commies).

But to be honest, my programming skills are very limited (did some Amstrad Basic back in the day, and have slightly modified the C++ gamecore.dll in civilization IV), so I really need some help here.
I could do the graphics (already have some ideas, and expecting it to be narrowed down to only the Font, right?), and also the trade-goods.plists, but I don't know enough of the structure of Oolite to put it to work properly.

Any help is much appreciated :D
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Re: 4 types of system economies

Post by Vincentz » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:45 pm

did some crude icons, and just looking at the star chart, I know I'm gonna love this :D

Image

Also renamed them instead of developed, undeveloped : (also with a rough outline of import/exports, not final though so suggestions are welcome)

"Rich Financial",
Exports: Random markets with lots of stock
Imports: Computers, Luxuries
"Financial",
Exports: Random markets, tend to be less random and less stock
Imports: Computers, Luxuries
"Hi-Tech Industrial",
Exports: Computers, Machines and Alloys
Imports: Minerals, Radioactives
"Industrial",
Exports: Firearms, Machines and Textiles
Imports: Slaves, Minerals
"Exploration",
Exports: Minerals, Gold, Platinum and Gems. lots of stock
Imports: Machines
"Prospecting",
Exports: Minerals, Gold, Platinum and Gems, More random and less stock.
Imports: Machines
"Advanced Agricultural",
Exports: Food, Furs and Liqueur
Imports: Machines, Computers
"Agricultural",
Exports: Cheaper food, but less stock
Imports: Machines, Slaves

Any suggestions to namechanging the economies are very welcome.
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Re: 4 types of system economies

Post by Vincentz » Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:39 am

First small steps have been taken :D (I honestly don't know if this should be called 0.1 or 1.0 ;))

Download : http://www.mediafire.com/download/ige89 ... ewDeal.oxz

So far its still in a very primitive stage. Mainly graphical, Changing the names for Economies and Main Export/Import Goods for economies.
I also upscaled the randomness of prices slightly, except for Gold, Platinum and Gems, to make it more interesting, and hopefully to reduce the difficulty a bit, which was otherwise upscaled by the more specific markets.

With (my idea of) explanation (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Economics: (in this version its just the MAIN imports and exports. Trades can be made to different system economies and still be good)

"Financial" Stock markets and business centers
EXPORT : None
IMPORT : Luxuries, Computers, Furs, Gold, Platinum and Gems
"Commerce" Trading and retailing
EXPORT : None
IMPORT : Food, Textiles
"Hi-Tech Industrial" Avanced technical manufacturing
EXPORT : Computers, Alloys
IMPORT : Radioactives
"Industrial" Manufacturing and processing.
EXPORT : Textiles, Machines
IMPORT : Minerals, Liquor/Wines
"Explorational" Biological and Geological resource extraction.
EXPORT : Radioactives, Minerals
IMPORT : Machines
"Prospecting" Mineral surveying and excavation.
EXPORT : Gold, Platinum, Gems
IMPORT : Machines
"Agronomical" Scientific and technical farming and cash crops plantations.
EXPORT : Liqour/Wines, Luxuries
IMPORT : Machines
"Agricultural" Farms, pastures, plantations.
EXPORT : Food, Furs
IMPORT : Machines

Commodities :
  • Food Agric -> Comme
    Being produced in farming worlds and being sold highest in commercial worlds
  • Textile Indus -> Comme
    Being produced in industrial worlds, and being sold highest in commercial worlds
  • Radioactives Explo -> Hi Tech
    Being excavated in Exploratory worlds and being used in Hi Tech systems
  • Slaves Untouched
  • Liquor/Wines Agron -> Explo
    Being grown and distilled/fermented in agronomical worlds and used widely but especially in hard working exploratory/industrial/prospecting worlds
  • Luxuries Agron -> Finan
    Being grown/produced in agronomical worlds (spices/coffee/exotics)
  • Narcotics Untouched
  • Computers Hi Tech -> Finan
    Being produced in Hi Tech worlds and sold and used primarily in Financial worlds
  • Machinery Indus -> Agron
    Being produced in Industrial worlds and sold in agri/agro/pros/explo systems
  • Alloys Hi Tech -> Indus
    Advanced alloys are being manufactured in Hi Tech worlds and sold on to Industrial worlds to use them in large scale
  • Firearms Untouched
  • Furs Agric -> Finan
    Ripped of poor animals and sold to people who could afford wearing gold, but rather want to walk in dead skin
  • Minerals Explo -> Indus
    Mainly extracted from exploratory worlds and sold to industrial worlds for further processing.
  • Gold Prosp -> Finan
    Bling...
  • Platinum Prosp -> Finan
    Bling...
  • Gems Prosp -> Finan
    Bling for the honey

PS. If a moderator reads this, maybe move it to expansions (?)
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Re: 4 types of system economies

Post by Disembodied » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:50 am

I don't know if this is possible, but - given that Financial and Commerce planets have no exports - is it possible for those planets to produce high-value parcels contracts? Presumably, as service economies, these sorts of systems would generate a lot of legal documents and other data that would need to be shuttled around the place: it would also give players something to come away with.

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Re: 4 types of system economies

Post by Vincentz » Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:51 am

Disembodied wrote:I don't know if this is possible, but - given that Financial and Commerce planets have no exports - is it possible for those planets to produce high-value parcels contracts? Presumably, as service economies, these sorts of systems would generate a lot of legal documents and other data that would need to be shuttled around the place: it would also give players something to come away with.
My original plan was to make financial (and commerce) economies be somewhat of a stock market. Lots of traffic usually at these high economy stations, so prices and stock would vary.
Cim did help me with a script, though atm I have a 6 month old with fever and a 3½ year old who jumped on the bed and hit the radiator, and got sewn with a couple of stitches, so he's staying home too, which leaves me little room to focus on learning a new programming language ;)
My Plan B was to make Luxuries into a "if lucky then prices are low and stocks are high at financial economies", by randomizing prizes and stocks based on economy but isolate stock somewhat financial. Though Luxuries iirc are symbolizing mostly expensive crops in Oolite canon (though original were cheaper in Rich Indu and expensive in Poor Agri, so plan B might still work).
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Re: New Deal Economies

Post by Layne » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:07 pm

Nice clean icons and I very much like the idea of diversifying the economies more. One quibble, I had to do some editing of the font-- I use the Standalonefont Oxp that changes the default font for the game to something a touch fancier, and it was necessary to cut-and-paste your icons into that font's png file to get them to show up. That's not your fault, of course, but it does imply that any oxps that change the overall default font won't use your custom icons properly.
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Re: New Deal Economies

Post by Vincentz » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:48 pm

Layne wrote:One quibble, I had to do some editing of the font-- I use the Standalonefont Oxp that changes the default font for the game to something a touch fancier, and it was necessary to cut-and-paste your icons into that font's png file to get them to show up.
Yup. I added my own font to it http://aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17322.
I looked at config/oolite-font.plist but I'm not sure its modable. If it is, then I will do that instead ofcourse, otherwise I can make an addon to the addon with the font (can't be that many fonts for oolite?) ;)
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