Pimp My Ride

An area for discussing new ideas and additions to Oolite.

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spara
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by spara » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:48 am

Thargoid wrote:Perhaps this could be extended a little to merge into the currently existing ship maintenance.

After a certain point, rather than there just being a chance of things breaking and a fuel leak, there could also be a gradual degradation in things like handling and max speed...
And to make it visual, when ship's engine has degraded, there could be a marker showing the current state of the engine on the speed bar and the speed would not go over that mark. In a similar fashion, ship's energy banks could also degrade and would have to be maintained to keep them fully usable.

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by pagroove » Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:21 pm

Definitely good ideas.

- I like to have upgrades to the engines in 3 tiers with plume colors changing as visual reference.

---->Blue: normal engine:
---->Orange/Yellow: Tier 1 engine
---->Green?: Tier 2 engine

- Engine upgrades ONLY in ships above a certain volume. For example minimum volume is a sidewinder?
- Engine upgrades costs space 1 Cargospace per tier?

- Engine upgrades ONLY possible in core ships under .40 LM. Ships that go at or above that speed (like the ASP, Viper Inteceptor and Constictor) are already highly engine tuned ships by themselves.
- Max speed for fastest ship (a Cobra 3 with tier 3) .45 LM?
- Penalty system like Mossfoot mentioned?
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- Support for building an upgrade system into OXP ships.
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by mossfoot » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:16 pm

pagroove wrote:Definitely good ideas.

- I like to have upgrades to the engines in 3 tiers with plume colors changing as visual reference.

---->Blue: normal engine:
---->Orange/Yellow: Tier 1 engine
---->Green?: Tier 2 engine

- Engine upgrades ONLY in ships above a certain volume. For example minimum volume is a sidewinder?
- Engine upgrades costs space 1 Cargospace per tier?

- Engine upgrades ONLY possible in core ships under .40 LM. Ships that go at or above that speed (like the ASP, Viper Inteceptor and Constictor) are already highly engine tuned ships by themselves.
- Max speed for fastest ship (a Cobra 3 with tier 3) .45 LM?
- Penalty system like Mossfoot mentioned?
**
- Support for building an upgrade system into OXP ships.
Not so sure about the cargospace/tier thing. For one thing within the universe mentality there are ships with no cargo space that you might want to upgrade for racing purposes.

Assuming that ships over a certain speed are already highly tweaked could work. Maybe assume that any ship with .40 or higher is a highly maintained machine and comes with Tier 2 standard?

Another way to look at it, though is that the problem is largely self-correcting. Let's say in this example the improvements on engine tweaks are fixed: 0.2/0.1/0.1 -- first tweak provides the most benefit and is easy to do. Next squeezes out more but is more specialized. Last pushes it to the limit but is more prone to breakdowns. However. An Adder with a .24 engine is going to benefit more from that proportionally than an asp with a .40 engine.

A third way might be diminishing returns. An older/slower ship can benefit more from upgrades than a newer/faster one. So maybe the low end Adder level might go 0.3/0.2/0.1 while a high end Asp one might go 0.1/0.1/0.05 or something? Maybe it can be coded per-ship as to what each is capable of in terms of upgrades (and kept a secret, leaving people wondering what ship have some surprising upgrade abilities and which might not get much more out of at all)

I do believe the penalty system (breakdown frequency and penalties for it) is the way to go to balance out the benefits. Also it should incorporate Spara's idea of a marker indicating your current max speed should it break down (this can apply to both speed modifiers and roll/pitch and help provide an extra visual cue that your ship needs work).
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by pagroove » Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:36 am

Ok I took some time to come up with an upgrade plan for most of the ships. Did some research on the Wiki 8) and came up with this.


->Someone needs to take this data and add the penalty data for each ships

Some penalties need to be so severe that you only want to upgrade if you are careless :lol: .
Example upgrading the mamba to racing status leads to a very very slow recharge rate of the energy banks due to all the energy going to the engine and so on. :mrgreen:

->list of possible failures
->prices per upgrade
Some upgrades especially the 2 and 3 tier should be so expensive or tied to a specific location that it is better to buy just a better ship.

->locations where the upgrade is done.
->Techlevel



Anyway I had fun so I throw this into the community :mrgreen:

Code: Select all

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Adder		0.24 LM		0.27 (+0.03)	0.30 (+0.02)	0.31 (+0.01)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and adding a small reactor booster
Tier 2: Optimizing Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines and Quirium Chambers
Tier 3: Installing Moss System experimental pre burners and Turbo reactor.  



Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Anaconda		0.14 LM		0.18 (+0.04)	0.20 (+0.02)	0.21 (+0.01)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and 3 and replacing Exhaust Nozzels
Tier 2: Refitting Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines and Quirium Chambers
Tier 3: Replacement of all Fuel lines and installment of a High end Quirium duct

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
ASP			0.40 LM		0.40.5 (+0.005)	0.43 (+0.025)	0.45 (+0.02*)
* More extreme upgrading not possible due to complexity of the Military Tech. Although the upgrades are 
highly reliable.

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Replacing Exhaust Nozzle
Tier 2: Refitting Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines and Quirium Chambers
Tier 3: Replacement of all Fuel lines and installment of a Military Quirium duct

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Boa			0.24 LM		0.28.5 (+0.04)	0.31 (+0.03)	0.325 (+0.015)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Replacing Exhaust Nozzle and adding a reactor booster
Tier 2: Refitting Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines
Tier 3: Replacement of whole engine with a Layla Quark-scintillation StarDrive 
(engine from a Boa Clipper see wiki)

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Boa	2 		0.312 LM		0.3412 (+0.04)	0.3612 (+0.03)	0.3712 (+0.015)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Replacing Exhaust Nozzle and adding a reactor booster
Tier 2: Refitting Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines
Tier 3: Installment of a Wulfsboorg Experimental Turbocharger 

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Cobra MK1 	0.26 LM		0.28 (+0.02)	0.30 (+0.02)	0.31 (+0.01)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps
Tier 2: Replacing Drive Turbines 
Tier 3: Installing an old Prosset Military Drive booster 

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Cobra MK3 	0.35 LM		0.40 (+0.05)	0.44 (+0.01)	0.45 (+0.01) (*)

* After the upgrade the Cobra becomes essentially a SuperCobra.
Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps
Tier 2: Installing a Cowell & MgRath Military Reactor 
Tier 3: Military engine tuning 

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Fer-de-Lance 	0.30 LM		0.38 (+0.08)	0.40 (+0.02)	0.42 (+0.02) 

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Installing a ZPG Sports Drive
Tier 2: ZPG Sport Tuning 1:  Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps 
Tier 3: Installing a Jarzzen Turbo burner

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Gecko	 	0.30 LM		0.36 (+0.06)	0.38 (+0.02)	0.40 (+0.02) 

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Installing High perf reactor
Tier 2: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps
Tier 3: Installing an OOyama stage 2 permanent afterburner

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Krait	 		0.30			-			-			-

Not upgradable due to spare parts not available

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Mamba	 	0.32 LM		0.48 (+0.16)	0.53 (+0.02*)	0.54 (+0.02*)
* Both the Tier 2 and 3 upgrades are not recommended except for pure racers due to unreliability and high failure rates 

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Installing OODO Competition Race Drive and HP Reactor
Tier 2: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps
Tier 3: Installing an OOyama stage 2 permanent afterburner

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Moray	 	0.30			-			-			-

Not upgradable due to installed marine drive

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Phyton		0.20 LM		0.23 (+0.03)	0.26 (+0.03)	0.27 (+0.01)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Replacing Exhaust Nozzle and adding a reactor booster
Tier 2: Refitting Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines
Tier 3: Adding a SyncClarc (TM) Twin Quirium Booster

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Sidewinder	0.37 LM		0.42 (+0.05)	0.45 (+0.03)	0.47 (+0.02*)

Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Installing Leihghley&Vaat Double LeMoons Drive
Tier 2: Refitting Fuel pumps/ Replacing Drive Turbines
Tier 3: Installing a Doctor proo permanent afterburner

* The Tier 3 upgrade is not recommended except for pure racers due to unreliability of the Doctor prop afterburner leading to fuel leaks



Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Transporter	 0.1			-			-			-

Not upgradable

Ship name	Base Speed	Tier 1		Tier 2		Tier 3
Worm	 	0.1		-			-			-

Not upgradable 

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by mossfoot » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:39 am

That is some nice flavor text to flesh out the ideas with. :)

Idea: The Krait and Moray might still be upgradeable, but only once and it counts as a Tier 3 (for the Moray because of the highly specialized requirements of the marine drive, and for the Krait because all the parts are custom made). Basically the boost would be on part with a Tier 1 but the risks and costs are on par with Tier 3.
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by Diziet Sma » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:16 am

pagroove wrote:Ok I took some time to come up with an upgrade plan for most of the ships.
Ouch.. most of those go a bit far, IMO.. pushing a cobby from 0.35 to 0.45? :shock:

Maxing out at an extra 0.05 (so, 0.40 for a cobby) after 3 tiers of upgrades seems more realistic to me..
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by pagroove » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:41 pm

Code: Select all

Ship name   Base Speed   Tier 1      Tier 2      Tier 3
Cobra MK3    0.35 LM      0.38 (+0.03)   0.39 (+0.01)   0.40 (+0.01) (*)

* After the upgrade the Cobra becomes essentially a SuperCobra.
Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps
Tier 2: Installing a Cowell & MgRath Military Reactor 
Tier 3: Military Reactor tuning 
@ Dizzy Like this?
Are there any other weird stats in your opinion?

I thought that a Mamba would be upgradable in the extreme as it is also a racing ship.
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by Disembodied » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:33 pm

One issue which occurs to me, specifically in regard to letting NPCs get these upgrades: the whole point of the Cobra III being fast (and having a top speed faster than the NPC Cobra III) is so that the player can overtake any masslocking ship, and avoid being stuck in a traffic jam. If NPCs get engine upgrades, and become faster, then an un-upgraded player will start to suffer longer masslocks, and might sometimes get stuck behind a ship they can't overtake. Players would start to leave the lane, which is a Bad Thing, gampelay-wise, in my opinion.

With that in mind, I think upgrades would have to be really, really uncommon - and top-end upgrades so uncommon that they'd be restricted to the player, after a huge amount of time, effort and money, and maybe a scripted mission ship or two.

Alternatively - and this might be worth thinking about for the game in general - maybe non-hostile ships might, after the player has overhauled them, say, drop their speed by 10%, to allow the player to move on through? As long as nothing else is going on, of course.

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by pagroove » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:47 pm

Yeah the whole upgrading is indeed a can of worms like Smivs said :).
Indeed you have the problems of the NPC's too. Nevermind I had fun making some upgrade flavor. :D
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by Thargoid » Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:44 pm

This sounds like perhaps it's getting a bit too advanced for itself.

Wouldn't it be simplest to make (officially) the request for the various ship performance stats to be exposed to JS as read/write, and a suitable (or brace of suitable) OXP(s) can be put together to do this kind of thing entirely under control. That way any sorts of variations can be done, from none up to completely user configurable...

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by cim » Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:39 pm

Disembodied wrote:One issue which occurs to me, specifically in regard to letting NPCs get these upgrades: the whole point of the Cobra III being fast (and having a top speed faster than the NPC Cobra III) is so that the player can overtake any masslocking ship, and avoid being stuck in a traffic jam.
This - having been playing with 1.79's adjustments to NPCs for a bit - is rather overrated. If you're travelling at 0.35, and the ship ahead of you is travelling in the same direction at 0.30, and you drop out of torus with them 15km ahead, if you just keep flying in a straight line it will take you ((15000 + 25600) / 50) seconds to overtake them in the worst case, or over ten minutes.

The 1.79/1.80 spacelane adds ships to a bit wider a cylinder, so you can go around masslockers by flying perpendicular to the lane for a few seconds - and will have to, for the Asp parcel couriers - without going so far off-lane that you'll miss all the fun.

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by mossfoot » Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:59 pm

I'd like to say that I agree that the proposed upgrades on those ships are a bit high. I just appreciated the effort put into the flavor text but assumed the actual figured would go back and forth amongst people until an agreement was reached.

Personally I don't think huge improvements are required at all. The numbers I initially used was more to demonstrate concept. But there is something to be said for the feeling of squeezing out a bit more from your ship, despite the risks.

As for NPC use of upgrades, that could be based on their Elite rating, the assumption being the more kills someone has the more likely they've earned a fair bit of money in their career (not through kills alone mind you, just a refection of longevity). But regardless the upgrades should be rarer and more expensive as they go up.

So maybe there's a 10-20% change someone might have Tier 1 at any elite rating. But Tier 2 only shows up for pilots that are above average (but not all, just a percentage) and Tier 3 only shows up with Dangerous and up (again, not all, just a percentage chance).

But the thing to remember is most people are going to avoid those kind of upgrades anyway. How many car owners try to ramp up their Subaru with special fuel injection? Is it worth the extra hassle each time you need to get it maintenanced?

It's the racers and hobbiests that do these things, as well as professionals that need an edge (imagine a real world bounty hunter wanting to add nitros oxide injection for pursuits ;) - most bounty hunters either wouldn't bother or just buy a faster car, but to each their own, right? Maybe you know a hot rod stands out and you want to be more incognito)

As for avoiding mass lock traffic jams or catching up with others, it would seem that's what witch fuel injectors are for these days ;) I know it's one of my first purchases!
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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by Diziet Sma » Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:57 pm

pagroove wrote:

Code: Select all

Ship name   Base Speed   Tier 1      Tier 2      Tier 3
Cobra MK3    0.35 LM      0.38 (+0.03)   0.39 (+0.01)   0.40 (+0.01) (*)

* After the upgrade the Cobra becomes essentially a SuperCobra.
Description of upgrades:

Tier 1: Synchronizing Engine 1 and 2 and Optimizing Fuel pumps
Tier 2: Installing a Cowell & MgRath Military Reactor 
Tier 3: Military Reactor tuning 
@ Dizzy Like this?
That does look more like what I had in mind, yes..
pagroove wrote:Are there any other weird stats in your opinion?

I thought that a Mamba would be upgradable in the extreme as it is also a racing ship.
Only that pretty much every entry has that over-large boost in top speed.

So far as the Mamba goes, there are plenty of racing classes where sheer "go like a bat out of hell" speed is not the overarching factor. Instead, it's a case of all ships being on a level playing field so that pilot skill is the determining factor rather than the size of their bank account, so I don't see that Mamba performance necessarily needs to be extreme. There is also the consideration that the vast majority of improvements in racing engines are about fairly marginal gains over whatever is the current state of the art. Large performance improvements are actually very uncommon.
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by Diziet Sma » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:03 am

Thargoid wrote:This sounds like perhaps it's getting a bit too advanced for itself.

Wouldn't it be simplest to make (officially) the request for the various ship performance stats to be exposed to JS as read/write, and a suitable (or brace of suitable) OXP(s) can be put together to do this kind of thing entirely under control. That way any sorts of variations can be done, from none up to completely user configurable...
Sounds like a very sensible suggestion, to me..
Most games have some sort of paddling-pool-and-water-wings beginning to ease you in: Oolite takes the rather more Darwinian approach of heaving you straight into the ocean, often with a brick or two in your pockets for luck. ~ Disembodied

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Re: Pimp My Ride

Post by Disembodied » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:34 am

cim wrote:If you're travelling at 0.35, and the ship ahead of you is travelling in the same direction at 0.30, and you drop out of torus with them 15km ahead, if you just keep flying in a straight line it will take you ((15000 + 25600) / 50) seconds to overtake them in the worst case, or over ten minutes.

The 1.79/1.80 spacelane adds ships to a bit wider a cylinder, so you can go around masslockers by flying perpendicular to the lane for a few seconds - and will have to, for the Asp parcel couriers - without going so far off-lane that you'll miss all the fun.
It's a bit off-topic, so my apologies, but this might not be obvious to beginning players: they might just find themselves taking 10 minutes to overhaul an NPC - or being unable to get past an Asp courier at all. Will the NPCs try to ease themselves out of the way, as well? Or will it be solely up to the player? Could there be message prompts from a masslocking NPC, after a certain amount of time, like "Give a guy a bit of spaceroom, can't you?"; "You're masslocked, I'm masslocked; take a detour, buddy!"; "Go AROUND, go AROUND!"?

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