Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

General discussion for players of Oolite.

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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by another_commander »

Redspear wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:35 am
another_commander wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:03 am To find the size of a ship, you can simply query its bounding box in the debug console.
That's not the volume of the model though, is it?

The cobra is somewhat triangular and so won't occupy as much if its bounding box as say an orbital shuttle, right?
Correct, I was responding mainly to hiran who asked about ways of finding the size of a ship. The vector components you get from the bounding box are its dimensions.

Edit: The size is reported in the ship library screen too. The bounding box data is used there as well.
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by hiran »

Redspear wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:43 am
hiran wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:13 pm Who can tell me how to interprete the .dat files?
Well, its been a while for me but I used to use Wings 3D, requiring me to convert .dat files to .obj (and then back again if keeping any changes).

The thread with the necessary info is here.

I'm not sure how it presents the volume data (i.e. units) but the value of it is that it can be compared to other models which suits my purposes just fine.
Thank you for this response, but it is not quite what I was looking for. I do not intend to convert the format into some other format I do not understand. Nor do I plan to load it into an editor for modification.
Cholmondely wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:49 am
hiran wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:13 pm Who can tell me how to interprete the .dat files?
Apologies if this has already been mentioned.

Just to note, when I was adding your Imperial Star Destroyer to http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Biggest_Ships_(Oolite), the volume was calculated thus: Note: Cubic Meters value is the size of the ship's rectangular bounding box, not actual volume.
Well, I have the feeling we were beating around the bush, but the gist of the question has not yet been touched...

I just want to understand the file format so I can in theory read such a file, then tell how long, wide or high a ship is.
Maybe I want to calculate mass, maybe I want to calculate volume. For all this it does not help to know there is some python script around...
another_commander wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:00 pm
Redspear wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:35 am
another_commander wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:03 am To find the size of a ship, you can simply query its bounding box in the debug console.
That's not the volume of the model though, is it?

The cobra is somewhat triangular and so won't occupy as much if its bounding box as say an orbital shuttle, right?
Correct, I was responding mainly to hiran who asked about ways of finding the size of a ship. The vector components you get from the bounding box are its dimensions.

Edit: The size is reported in the ship library screen too. The bounding box data is used there as well.
This is more to my taste, as it would give away the dimensions of the ship. But again, the idea was to read the .dat file instead of relying on other interpreters.

Meanwhile I have an idea how to get the bounding box:
The first section in a .dat file lists all the vertexes. These are used then to 'hook up' faces, which get then a texture applied and so on. So the dimensions cannot go further than the vertexes are apart. Vertexes have three coordinate components in a 3D coordinate system.

Length could be the max(over all vertexes' first component)-min((over all vertexes' first component)
Width could be the max(over all vertexes' second component)-min(over all vertexes' second component)
Height could be the max(over all vertexes' third component)-min(over all vertexes' third component)

Volume would be a lot more difficult do calculate. A first algorithm could simply take the volume of the bounding box, which is an upper limit.
Then you could treat the ship as an convex shape and try to figure out the volume this way.
Finally you could look up the 'inside' of a ship by looking at the normal vectors of the faces and then sum up all that. Probably the best result but my brain gets overloaded while writing this...
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Redspear »

Astrobe wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:05 pm
Cholmondely wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:45 am
Astrobe wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:21 pm 5) Every ship is multi-role, and most of them are terrible at it. Freighters like the Python and Boa are basically just much bigger versions of the Mamba or Sidewinder - they fly about the same, they're just slightly tougher (and not even that much tougher). Compare with something like Tie Fighter or Freespace where a freighter is very definitely not a slightly bigger fighter.
I'm happy to edit stuff about this if told what to do. But what do our Admirals and Montana05 say? Or others with a good feel for the ships? Will we also need to make changes in the Vanilla game? And... why were they changed in the first place? Surely people knew what they were doing?
This apparently is me quoting someone else, cause I've never been in a Tie or played Freespace. Maybe I was agreeing with the quoted element at that time. Today it seems to me a bit of an exaggeration ; a Sidewinder with no cargo doesn't play the same, and the turn rates, max speed etc. do make a difference.
Apologies Astrobe, I'd completely missed your post...

I believe it was cim but may well be wrong.

Astrobe wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:05 pm The paradox is that, as I mentioned, when you start piling mods, you are actually making a game (with its own internal consistency etc.). And when you have a game, you cannot add just any mod anymore, because it will often destroy the internal consistency of the game. This is when you start to see (sub)game-specific mods, and it is exactly what is happening in Minetest. In Oolite, there's certainly mods from a same author that are designed to work well together. This is the prototype of a "subgame".
Well, kinda... Certainly I've made mods that attempt to order or work with other mods but there are a lot of set piece mods for oolite. Commies, Black Monks, Hoopy Casinos, Tardis etc. etc. It's the mechanics altering oxps that really change the game (and yes, carelessly installed UBER-ships that shift the difficulty dramatically in either direction or simply destabilise it).

In truth, I think it was there from the start. Why is the viper interceptor so much faster than the asp? It's not even close. Could aegidian have been anticipating oxp player ships that would inevitably be faster than the asp? i suspect so...

Astrobe wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:05 pm The paradox is, the stronger your game is the more trivial and the less significant (i.e. they don't affect the game in significant ways) the serious mods become.
Another one! :D

Again, it depends I think. However, perhaps there's a larger point here (desperately grasps for larger point...)

This dynamic tension between "strength" and elasticity is arguably what makes a game. If you lose either then it's essentially a book or an empty box. The core of a moddable game is often a bare bones but fun skeleton that people seek to flesh out but there will always be disagreement in the how to do so.

1984. wireframe elite, imaginatons run wild as to what the ships might look like between those wireframes. A year or two later we see them filled in with flat colours on some machines and some imaginations feel cheated, others delighted.

Astrobe wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:05 pm I think the player base would generally agree on not to go the "subgame" way, even though it is often said that "you make your own game with Oolite". This is a gentle lie. One likely prefers to benefit from the synergies created by a player base that play essentially the same game, not thousands of different games. Certainly one game that can be played in different ways is preferable.
Thus the argument to keep the wiki primarily about the core game (or at least to make clear the distinction). The easiest way to do so likely being not to pollute core game pages unneccessarily with oxp details as if they were 'canonical' or intrinsic (e.g. rattle cutter reference on viper page).

I think oolite can still be played in many ways and actually it's the myriad of which that has confused things (paradoxical as you point out). The way to appreciate the core game is to install too many oxps. The way to appreciate oxps is to install none. Choice is both a boon and a curse but with a little discretion (and likely a lot of trial and error) it becomes much more the former than the latter.

Astrobe wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:05 pm But if one agrees on "let's have a stronger core game", who can guarantee it will go in the direction *I* want ? This is perhaps the unspoken dilemma.
Even adopting Griff's shipset as core ruffled a few feathers, so one could argue it's been voiced a few times. I think you're dead right though but it doesn't have to be a problem as long as there are simple mods that address each of the main 'weaknesses'. Like the screenshots page on the oolite website, it can highlight all kinds of things that aren't in the game by default. Likewise the screenshots page on these boards.

Dilemma/paradox/dynamic tension/balance. as long as it lies in different places for different players then i don't think you can truly get it 'right'; what you can do however is plan for it to be both easily adjustable and to have a clear default setting to return too if you get lost.

hiran wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:13 pm My feeling is that interpreting the .dat files should not be too difficult
another_commander wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:00 pm The vector components you get from the bounding box are its dimensions.
Speaking of which, the Dat2Obj.py file doesn't seem to work with ooilte_shuttle.dat (Griff's model) whereas it does so just fine with the much simpler shuttle_redux.dat model.
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Cody »

Redspear wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:58 pmThe easiest way to do so likely being not to pollute core game pages unneccessarily with oxp details as if they were 'canonical' or intrinsic...
What a splendid idea!
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Cholmondely »

Cody wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:03 pm
Redspear wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:58 pmThe easiest way to do so likely being not to pollute core game pages unnecessarily with oxp details as if they were 'canonical' or intrinsic...
What a splendid idea!
So... are we talking about oxp details not being clearly labelled as oxp...

or are we talking about mentioning an oxp outside its own dedicated page?
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:48 pm So... are we talking about oxp details not being clearly labelled as oxp...

or are we talking about mentioning an oxp outside its own dedicated page?
Well, I can tell you what I was talking about (not that I'm any great authority on the matter).

If you look up the [wiki]Moray Star Boat (Oolite)[/wiki] then I'll go section by section...

Overview

A description from the old elite manual plus a link to the Isinor page on a count of its (core game) "unusual oceans". I've got no issues with that.

Variants

So we've got the medical boat from 'The Dark Wheel' story which IS in the core game (so fair enough) but then we've got a "Moray Medical Boat - series 2" and "Moray Guard Boat".

Not only are those two from oxps but (if you jump to that page while reading) this is not at all obvious until you get to the download section on their page (if indeed you do, where one finds that the oxp isn't yet available). The worst part IMHO is that the page of the original Moray Med boat is changed to describe it as "series 1" and also to reference "series 2". If you don't have that oxp installed (and as it's currently unavailable almost nobody does) then it's not only irrelevant but actually misleading.

Variants kind of makes sense but the issue here is that one of them is core whereas the others aren't.

Constructive thoughts to come...

Upgrades

Core equipment only. I approve :P

Remarks

Elite/Oolite and clear which is which. The clarification of the oxp variants wouldn't need to be here if they weren't mentioned as if canonical in the description. There is no such clarification on the original Moray Star Boat Medical page.

Custom Paint Jobs

Rather oxp stuff can go here...

Links

...and even here, taking the reader to an individual page for each where, to my mind, they could describe the core Moray ships as whichever series they wish.

Just as we currently have (Oolite) after some ships to distinguish them from Elite shops on the wiki, perhaps we should always have "(OXP)" as a suffix to any page describing something that isn't in the core game.
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by montana05 »

Redspear wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:58 am Not only are those two from oxps but (if you jump to that page while reading) this is not at all obvious until you get to the download section on their page (if indeed you do, where one finds that the oxp isn't yet available). The worst part IMHO is that the page of the original Moray Med boat is changed to describe it as "series 1" and also to reference "series 2". If you don't have that oxp installed (and as it's currently unavailable almost nobody does) then it's not only irrelevant but actually misleading.
Remarks

While in the Elite Manual the dimensions are 60 × 25 × 65 ft. the current core-ship model got 59 x 29 x 70 m. The speed has also been increased by 5.

Moray Medical Boat - series 02 and Moray Guard Boat are OXP crafts and don't belong to the core-ships.
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Cholmondely »

So it is in essence a matter of making sure that all OXP-related material is firmly identified as such (if I understand you correctly).

Good.

There is an issue with page titles thanks to Hiran's project - trying to make the wiki more usable, and thus referring to things as they are named in the game itself (usually without OXP in the title).

But that is no reason not to ensure that OXPs are clearly described as such.

Why not start a list of problematic pages (as you come across them) for me to clobber?
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by montana05 »

Well, it is actually mentioned in the section "Remarks". Probably I need to add it in larger letters and another color so that it's more visible for everybody.

The OXP's are not finished because I started with Dybal to restore lost packages, which, since Dybal left, is taking most of my time for Oolite. How about we take every single page down with missing/lost download links ? The wiki would be much easier to read. :roll:
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Redspear »

montana05 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:34 am Remarks

While in the Elite Manual the dimensions are 60 × 25 × 65 ft. the current core-ship model got 59 x 29 x 70 m. The speed has also been increased by 5.

Moray Medical Boat - series 02 and Moray Guard Boat are OXP crafts and don't belong to the core-ships.
So you're assuming that readers will both read and process that section and that it will contextualise all that went before?

That's perhaps a reasonable assumption. In fact, I made it myself when I wrote above:
Redspear wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:58 am Remarks

Elite/Oolite and clear which is which. The clarification of the oxp variants wouldn't need to be here if they weren't mentioned as if canonical in the description. There is no such clarification on the original Moray Star Boat Medical page.
However, you seemed to have missed it despite my mentioning it was coming :
Redspear wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:58 am If you look up the [wiki]Moray Star Boat (Oolite)[/wiki] then I'll go section by section...
Easily done and that's my point. Do you see?

Information that requires contextualising later requires a degree of concentration and/or assumption that IMHO is problematic in a wiki page.
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by montana05 »

Redspear wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:15 pm Information that requires contextualising later requires a degree of concentration and/or assumption that IMHO is problematic in a wiki page.
You do have a point, I assumed that if somebody read the variants and the remarks its easy to come to the conclusion that it's not core. However, I will reformulate so that no concentration or logical skills are required.
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Cody »

montana05 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:37 pmI will reformulate so that no concentration or logical skills are required.
Strike one for the dumb pilots union! <grins> Stop pollution, save the planet - or in this case, the Ooniverse!
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by montana05 »

Cody wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:27 pm
montana05 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:37 pmI will reformulate so that no concentration or logical skills are required.
Strike one for the dumb pilots union! <grins> Stop pollution, save the planet - or in this case, the Ooniverse!
Thanks, Cody to make me smile on a tough day. So you require a wiki for dummies ? :wink:
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Cody »

Tough day here too, after a tough night. Think I'll play St. John’s Night on the Bare Mountain by Mussorgsky!
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Re: Nerdy Analysis For Fun (NAFF)

Post by Redspear »

montana05 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:37 pm on a tough day
Apologies if to any degree on my account.
I may be outspoken sometimes but my opinions are just opinions, nothing more.
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