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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:38 am 
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OK, so the title's a bit grandiose but if I can convince myself of a better one then I'll change it...

This is an update of an oxp I released under a different name here.

It tries to alter the situation of standard missiles being 'a bit rubbish' and hardhead missiles being maybe a bit too good.
I like the simple mechanic of the ECM but I think it's problematic in it's current use.


As I see it:

Standard missiles are one of the few (if not only) weapons available for purchase by the starting player but often they are money 'thrown away' (bit harsh perhaps but can be true). Pirate packs and trade convoys will usually have ECM - so when the player needs their missiles most (outnumbered) they are at their least useful.

Thargoids in the original elite were (nearly always) immune to missiles because they always had ECM and there were no hardheads. I think that's kinda cool - if there were to be a special anti-Thargoid missile then I think it should be rare or expensive or part of a mission or perhaps all three! Meanwhile hardheads nearly always hit (to significant effect) and standard missiles nearly always don't. I don't think that's desirable behaviour.


So, what does this thing do about it?
  • ECM frequency in non player ships is significantly reduced for most (but not all) ships
  • 3 missile types: defence (cheap, weak), standard and torpedo (not ECM hardened but high damage)
  • ECM is no much higher tech (which matches the elite lore if not it's historical tech value) and therfore rarer
  • ECM is more fragile and so easilly damaged, so player is without it more often

Result is closer to the original elite and more interesting IMHO whilst remaining simple:
  • Standard missiles are much more useful for both player and occasionally for non-players too
  • ECM is rarer (and the torpedo is dangerous) but the defence missiles provide a relatively cheap, if perishable, anti-missile defence
  • ECM becomes something that you are likely to be without ocasionally, even in a well equipped ship
  • All missiles are a threat again but rarely a death sentence
  • Thargoids no longer care about your missiles :twisted:


It's only version 0.2 as there's potentially lots to tweak and maybe a few things to add but... it works for me.
Hope it's of interest.

Available from the in game manager.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:23 am 
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Location: [p]laying [h]ard and [k]icking [b]utt somewhere in G7...
Might need a ";" at the end of line 16 of the shipdata.plist file, otherwise Mac players might have a problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:16 pm 
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Thanks phkb.

I've a pricing tweaked v 0.3 version nearly ready so I'll add the semicolon to that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Location: Essex (mainly industrial and occasionally anarchic)
Respeare,

I like the sound of this, but I'd like clarification of a few points.

1) Does your OXP remove hardheads, i.e. ECM-proof (or, is it, I don't recall, largely ECM-proof) missiles from the game?
2) Why/in what sense, with your OXP, do Thargoids stop caring about missiles?

Also,

3) is there a chance this OXP might break other OXPs? Perhaps that might happen - though I am unsure just how - if your OXP overrides or renames any other missiles.

EDIT: if you want a shorter name for your OXP, how about NewMissiling, or AlternativeMissiles?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:27 am 
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Hi UK_Eliter,

1) Yes

2) They should always have ECM and there are no longer ECM resistant missiles. That doesn't mean the player can't be creative in how they use their missile (point blank etc.) but it won't be easy to use missiles against them... besides, they've had their fear-glands removed, don't you know :-P

3) Yes, I'm afraid so. If they expect regular missile behaviour (as well they might) then this will change that. Sorry - but like a planet tecture, you can have one or the other, not both.

Re names. It used to be called Fragile ECM but because I'd also changed missiles I opted to change the name.
So, AlternativeMissiles has the same problem for me. NewMissiling would be better but is Missiling a word?

Thanks for your thoughts.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Location: Essex (mainly industrial and occasionally anarchic)
Thanks for the explanations.

No hardheads at all seems a bit too radical to me . . [EDITED to fix typo.]

I am unsure 'missiling' is a word. It sounds right but read wrongly. I have not looked it up.


Last edited by UK_Eliter on Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Quote:
Thanks for the explanations.
You're welcome :)

Quote:
Ho hardheads at all seems a bit too radical to me . .
You're probably right...

When I was prepping v 0.2 I briefly added hardheads (including a hardheaded torpedo) until I remembered the Thargoids.
Quote:
These ships are extremely fast for their size and invariably have ECM Systems (this was originally a Thargoid invention to counter Navy missiles, subsequently copied by the Navy from captured Thargoid ships).
In elite there were no hardheads of course, and one of the things that made Thargoids so tough was that they always had ECM.

The hardheads I was thinking of would have been very high tech level (14) but the player just needs one such system on their route (there aren't very many to be fair) and they can stock up indiscriminitely. I also find the ECM spamming required versus the hardheads a bit annoying.

Maybe there's a better way to do it. Suppose hardheads were tech level 13, higher than the ECM they counter (now at TL12) as it's supposed to be based on captured Thargoid tech. However, being very dangerous weapons (potentially able to bypass police and even station defences) they are only available at multi-governments or higher (effectively black market) and perhaps also high tech worlds plagued by civil war. Charge a grand each for the privilage and, like the ECM itself, they are now much less common.

If a thousand credits seems a bit steep then remember that they were 350 each and now only approx 1/3 of ships that had ECM before still have it (ECM having some ability vs hardheads, if not much).
I could probably cook up a script to make Thargoids immune to hardheads (easy enough to do if the firer is the player but otherwise I'd need to think about it...)

Meanwhile there are issues around making standard missiles more expensive.
Suppose standard missiles cost twice as much. If the starting player sells all missiles then he or she now has (30 x 2 x 3 + 100) 280, rather than 190 credits (actually, that's not so terrible).

I'll think some more before updating but what is likely to be coming is smaller ships will use the weaker defence missiles while the big freighters favour the torpedos.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:40 pm 
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OK version 0.3 is now available.

What's New?
  • Hardhead is back but much higher tech and more expensive
  • Adders favour defence missiles while pythons, boas and anacondas tend to have torpedos
  • Errant semicolon returned (thanks phkb)
  • Pricing tweaks

Quote:
I am unsure 'missiling' is a word
I'm pretty sure that it isn't... maybe we can make it so (start the campaign!) :P

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:54 am 
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Seems to be an issue updating to 0.3

Taken from Latest.log
Quote:
01:46:50.075 [plist.parse.failed]: Failed to parse /GNUstep/Library/Caches/org.aegidian.oolite/Oolite-download.oxz/manifest.plist as a property list.
Parse failed at line 11 (char 789) - unexpected character (wanted ';' or '}')
01:46:50.075 [oxz.manager.error]: Downloaded OXZ does not contain a manifest.plist, has been left in /GNUstep/Library/Caches/org.aegidian.oolite/Oolite-download.oxz
HTH

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:29 am 
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Thanks D E.

Should be fixed within 24hrs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:30 am 
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v 0.4 (with manifest fix) is now available and should download without trouble.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:05 am 
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Is anyone else finding that they are unable to buy torpedo's ?
I am currently piloting a Python ET - just wondering if there is a mass threshold for buying them?
I have even removed all pylon mounted equip but I still cannot buy :?
All other missiles buy ok just not torpedo's.

Cheers for any advice.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:20 am 
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There's no mass threshold but thanks for the report. I should be in a position to investigate in a few hours or so.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Taken from Latest.log
Quote:

03:52:29.232 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:52:33.589 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:52:34.072 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:52:34.572 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:52:45.914 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:52:46.313 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:52:46.631 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:53:10.809 [LogEvents]: bought EQ_MISSILE_REMOVAL
03:53:11.112 [LogEvents]: Cobra Mark III 20012 spawned at 5 km
03:53:11.112 [LogEvents]: Sidewinder Scout Ship 22295 spawned at 9 km
03:53:11.112 [LogEvents]: Sidewinder Scout Ship 24364 spawned at 9 km
03:53:11.112 [LogEvents]: Cobra Mark IV 29207 spawned at 10 km
03:53:11.112 [LogEvents]: Caduceus Omega 15920 spawned at 10 km
03:53:11.112 [LogEvents]: Mamba 13816 spawned at 10 km
03:53:18.060 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:53:18.762 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE
03:53:19.145 [equip.buy.mounted.failed]: Could not find ship for mounted weapon role EQ_TORPEDO_MISSILE

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:42 pm 
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I changed the new missile's ship templates but it seems I ommited their individual ship entries.
This would explain why they are 'advertised in the shop window' and yet 'out of stock'.

Added to the to-do list.

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