Nordic Keyboard

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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by commander_STyx2909 »

Reval wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:13 am
Commander_X wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:52 am Care to elaborate more on why is this missed in Oolite, or, if not missed, what would be its best use case?
Oh, by 'fly-by-wire' I was merely referring back to my previous - somewhat tongue-in-cheek - comment about the putative 'reality' of the temporal situation with the Oolite ships: that they would of course be lavishly fitted with thrusters and compensators or whatever, facilitating simple presses of 'left' and 'right' to go left and right (ie. yaw as opposed to roll). Nothing more elaborate than that, I assure you :) IOW, my petition to the omniscient devs that yaw should be Oolite's left-right default should be taken at face value.

Cholmondely, to my chagrin, countered that rather effectively. But I persist in the opinion that the default should be changed forthwith...
I forgot to mention that roll is indeed needed and primary over yaw in order to synchronize rotation with coriolis stations. 8) When you consider that fact, it makes much more sense, isn't it?
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Reval »

Yes, of course (what would vanilla XLite be without manual docking!?) I was not proposing to do away with roll - as you see from my key assignments, I just shifted it over to where yaw was previously, giving the left-right arrows to yaw, which in my view is far more intuitive and logical... For my part, I use yaw all the time, scarcely ever having to resort to rolling, so those keys are always under my fingers (I'm not using a joystick).
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Commander_X »

Hah, ok, I'd guess the easiest way to answer your petition would be to include two keyconfig.plist files in the distro (e.g. keyconfig.plist.roll and keyconfig.plist.yaw) and "deploy" the chosen version during installation.
You can also batch/shell script this for any post-installation change of mind.
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Reval »

Commander_X wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:26 pm Hah, ok, I'd guess the easiest way to answer your petition would be to include two keyconfig.plist files in the distro (e.g. keyconfig.plist.roll and keyconfig.plist.yaw) and "deploy" the chosen version during installation.
You can also batch/shell script this for any post-installation change of mind.
A superb idea - elegant, simple, and acceptable to all parties :)

But the question remains - will the devs take note and implement it?
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Cholmondely »

Just been working through Stranger's Hard Way wiki page and came across this:
Turn rate in yaw/pitch channels

One can use both max_flight_pitch and max_flight_yaw parameters in the shipdata.plist, but usually the last is omitted and by default is equal to max_flight_pitch. It seems that the NPCs never use the yaw channel to change their own flight direction. It also seems also that some human players never use the yaw channel either: but for players with a joystick with a twisting z-axis there is an easy way to do it.

A default max_flight_yaw equal to the max_flight_pitch seems to be too sensitive, especially for a joystick. Reducing the player ship’s turning in the yaw channel helps to ease precise aiming without switching control sensitivity. Too high a rate of turn in the yaw channel also contradicts my own perceptions, based on piloting a real glider in reality – turning an aircraft without banking is an extremely ineffective manoeuver compared with a more coordinated turn incorporating a roll.
And, I've already come across sundry references over the years in this BB to the computers in the Ooniverse being a pale shadow of the computers in this world. Our cobras probably do have wires installed for flying!
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Reval »

Cholmondely wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:47 am And, I've already come across sundry references over the years in this BB to the computers in the Ooniverse being a pale shadow of the computers in this world. Our cobras probably do have wires installed for flying!
I'm shocked. Care to speculate on how that might have come about? (or is advanced computing tech a secret only the Guild remembers?)
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Cody »

AI in the Oolite universe is massively dangerous, and viewed with some horror. Hence the almost complete absence of automation, and what there is - docking computers, homing missiles - is very simplistic. Hence, also, the lack of robots and the presence of slaves.
Who was it that set up a system, a supposedly democratic system
Where you end up always voting for the lesser of two evils?
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Reval »

Cody wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:32 am
AI in the Oolite universe is massively dangerous, and viewed with some horror. Hence the almost complete absence of automation, and what there is - docking computers, homing missiles - is very simplistic. Hence, also, the lack of robots and the presence of slaves.
I could credit that if limited to a particular culture/planet/race or even species, but pan-galactically? - that's a real stretch.
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Cholmondely »

Reval wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:37 am
Cody wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:32 am
AI in the Oolite universe is massively dangerous, and viewed with some horror. Hence the almost complete absence of automation, and what there is - docking computers, homing missiles - is very simplistic. Hence, also, the lack of robots and the presence of slaves.
I could credit that if limited to a particular culture/planet/race or even species, but pan-galactically? - that's a real stretch.
Not at all.

It's that ghastly Guild - the gruesome GET gazzumpers - who whizz around the galaxy sabotaging any decent technology. Read about it all in SPACE magazine!

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Other_ ... _magazines It's all part of their master-scheme to take over our Ooniverse!
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Reval »

Cholmondely wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:59 am
Reval wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:37 am
Cody wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:32 am
I could credit that if limited to a particular culture/planet/race or even species, but pan-galactically? - that's a real stretch.
Not at all.

It's that ghastly Guild - the gruesome GET gazzumpers - who whizz around the galaxy sabotaging any decent technology. Read about it all in SPACE magazine!

http://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Other_ ... _magazines It's all part of their master-scheme to take over our Ooniverse!
And exactly how many Anlian gins did Adalbert have to feed Cholmondeley the Craven for that little morsel of fact??
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Disembodied »

Reval wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:37 am
Cody wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:32 am
AI in the Oolite universe is massively dangerous, and viewed with some horror. Hence the almost complete absence of automation, and what there is - docking computers, homing missiles - is very simplistic. Hence, also, the lack of robots and the presence of slaves.
I could credit that if limited to a particular culture/planet/race or even species, but pan-galactically? - that's a real stretch.
That's the great thing about fiction: it's very stretchy.
  • Electronics leads to automation.
  • Automation leads to AI.
  • AI leads to strong AI.
  • Strong AI leads to technological singularity.
  • Bad news: technological singularity is NOT the Rapture of the Nerds; it's a pack of hyperadvanced machine intelligences going berserk before collapsing/ascending/subliming/fill in your answer to the unanswerable here …
  • Good news: the machine intelligences do disappear.
  • Bad news: at best, they leave behind a ravaged global economy and a society struggling to rebuild its industries and networks pretty much from scratch. At worst, along with the economic destruction, millions - even billions - of sentient beings have been absorbed by these things, and are left mindless/insane, or have simply vanished.
This process seems to be as inevitable as stellar evolution. Cultures who survive this come out the other end with a strong aversion to automation and to electronics in particular. Our multi-species society, held in loose alliance within the Co-operative, has managed to develop organic computation: it's slower and squishier, but every computer-node has a short and finite lifespan, and is guaranteed not to gallop away over the eschatological horizon.

These organic brainlets are what we call "computers". They are vat-grown on an industrial scale, and all have the exact same properties. Because they are mortal, there's a constant demand for them, and because they're identical there's not a whit of difference between a computer from a TL-15 world and a computer from a TL-5 world. A Rich Industrial planet can grow them in bulk, making them a little cheaper: price is the only difference.
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Cody »

When the subject of AI, fly-by-wire, and automation, comes up, you'll often hear an old saying thrown into the conversation. It's origins are lost in the mists of time, as is its meaning. But for some reason it lingers on: If it's Boeing, I ain't going!
Who was it that set up a system, a supposedly democratic system
Where you end up always voting for the lesser of two evils?
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Cholmondely »

Cody wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:02 pm When the subject of AI, fly-by-wire, and automation, comes up, you'll often hear an old saying thrown into the conversation. It's origins are lost in the mists of time, as is its meaning. But for some reason it lingers on: If it's Boeing, I ain't going!
It sounds so-o-o-o much better when pronounced by a stretched organic brainlet speaking in lobstoid!
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Reval »

Disembodied wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:52 am
Reval wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:37 am
Cody wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:32 am
I could credit that if limited to a particular culture/planet/race or even species, but pan-galactically? - that's a real stretch.
That's the great thing about fiction: it's very stretchy.
  • Electronics leads to automation.
  • Automation leads to AI.
  • AI leads to strong AI.
  • Strong AI leads to technological singularity.
  • Bad news: technological singularity is NOT the Rapture of the Nerds; it's a pack of hyperadvanced machine intelligences going berserk before collapsing/ascending/subliming/fill in your answer to the unanswerable here …
  • Good news: the machine intelligences do disappear.
  • Bad news: at best, they leave behind a ravaged global economy and a society struggling to rebuild its industries and networks pretty much from scratch. At worst, along with the economic destruction, millions - even billions - of sentient beings have been absorbed by these things, and are left mindless/insane, or have simply vanished.
This process seems to be as inevitable as stellar evolution. Cultures who survive this come out the other end with a strong aversion to automation and to electronics in particular. Our multi-species society, held in loose alliance within the Co-operative, has managed to develop organic computation: it's slower and squishier, but every computer-node has a short and finite lifespan, and is guaranteed not to gallop away over the eschatological horizon.

These organic brainlets are what we call "computers". They are vat-grown on an industrial scale, and all have the exact same properties. Because they are mortal, there's a constant demand for them, and because they're identical there's not a whit of difference between a computer from a TL-15 world and a computer from a TL-5 world. A Rich Industrial planet can grow them in bulk, making them a little cheaper: price is the only difference.
I like it - the pseudo-logic is almost believable :)

However, I did notice references to 'culture' there. Again, within a culture I really could go with the argument, but... are we saying that the AIs would not begin to evolve as variously as the 'wet' once did? (ie. some good, some bad, some in-between, across the whole gamut...)
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Re: Nordic Keyboard

Post by Disembodied »

Reval wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:08 pm However, I did notice references to 'culture' there. Again, within a culture I really could go with the argument, but... are we saying that the AIs would not begin to evolve as variously as the 'wet' once did? (ie. some good, some bad, some in-between, across the whole gamut...)
The Co-operative can be viewed as a single culture, in basic technological terms at least. We all share the same reactionless ship-drive and witchspace technology. The more advanced planets have either experienced and survived, or witnessed the aftermath of, a runaway electronic singularity, and they're not prepared to allow the same catastrophe to happen on less developed worlds. Bad for business, at the very least.

Electronic AI is not like organic intelligence; there is a deterministic, relentless, and exponential logic to its evolution. And there are different outcomes: it's just that none of them are good outcomes for the biological species which have to live through them. An egg might bring forth a song-thrush or an alligator - but either way, the process is undeniably rough on the egg.

There is one species we know of which does make extensive use of robots: the Thargoids. They're implacably hostile and - from an analysis of their attempts to communicate - apparently insane.
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