Hyperdrives v.0.3

Discussion and information relevant to creating special missions, new ships, skins etc.

Moderators: another_commander, winston

User avatar
cim
Quite Grand Sub-Admiral
Quite Grand Sub-Admiral
Posts: 4027
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Hyperdrives WIP

Post by cim »

Redspear wrote:If I understand correctly, wormholes can be 'collapsed' by a large enough ship entering them and this is adjustable via ship density (although not without altering collision behaviour).
While there are wiki pages which imply that's the case - and it might be the more interesting way to do it - that's not how it works in game: a ship entering a wormhole adds its mass to that of the wormhole, extending its lifespan rather than reducing it.
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives WIP

Post by Redspear »

cim wrote:While there are wiki pages which imply that's the case - and it might be the more interesting way to do it - that's not how it works in game: a ship entering a wormhole adds its mass to that of the wormhole, extending its lifespan rather than reducing it.
You've identified both the misconception and the source there cim :D

If ship ship density is reduced then that would reduce wormhole duration, right? I'm guessing it would also make such ships less dangerous to collide with but would it also make them more fragile?
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v0.1

Post by Redspear »

Added v0.1 to the download manager:

Details in the first post of this thread.

Only v0.1 because, as usual, I'm working this stuff out as I go along.

Hope it's of interest to some.
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
ffutures
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.1

Post by ffutures »

I won't be using this. At the early stages it's just going to make it difficult to run some cargo routes that are good earners for a beginning pilot; once you've got a bit of money it really doesn't seem to add a lot to game play, except a lot of extra chances to be marooned in a low-tech system.

Basically, the big problem I can see here is that you are going to be comprehensively screwed if you lose your scanner, galactic hyperdrive, or energy unit in an isolated low-tech system or group of systems, e.g. at the wrong end of at least one 6.8 LY jump from any system that can fix it. Because if I'm reading this right there are going to be very few non-player ships around with the full 7 LY range so hitching a lift isn't going to get you anywhere useful. This will also be a problem immediately after a galactic jump, of course.

Also, if you need the energy unit to max out range, that would appear to imply that the ship needs the energy to make the hyperjump. If we take that literally it should be impossible to get full range with depleted energy levels, e.g. most combat situations, if you accidentally jump into a supernova system, if the cloaking device is running, etc. If that isn't the case you need to explain what it is about the energy unit that makes it essential for the longer jumps. Also why ships don't arrive with depleted energy levels, of course.
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.1

Post by Redspear »

Hi ffutures and thanks for your thoughts.

Ideally what I'd like to have done is to make a 7ly range average (as implied in the original elite manual) but extending beyond that range treads on too many toes in terms of both the core game and oxp missions.

This oxp certainly won't make things easier for the player. It's interesting to me, if unsurprising, how options that make a ship less capable are seldom popular (consider all of the "step up from a cobra mk III" oxp ships that have been made). Of course your concern about being marooned is valid and so a little explanation might help.

Firstly, this oxp in its current incarnation does nothing to non-player ships. Perhaps it should but it doesn't. So any non-player ship with a hyperdrive can jump 7LY. So your chance of getting truly stuck is remote. The chance to have jump range reduced by ship damage, for me at least, adds some dramatic tension (and even strategy) to doing any kind of contract run - do you hitch-hike and hope for the best? should you back-track to that high-tech system for repairs? can you still make it but will now have less fuel for injectors? Easier, no; more fun, possibly.

Secondly, IIRC, the extra energy unit does not actually add any more energy, rather it improves the energy recharge rate. So whether or not the low energy situation you describe would be restrictive depends on exactly what's going on. I must admit, the 'what' is somewhat hazy in my mind but I imagined the hyperdrive as not exceeding a ships recharge rate in terms of energy consumption (therefore no energy loss on entering a new system assuming other costs are negligible whilst making a jump - no lasers, ecm, cloaking etc.) and so the EEU could boost hyperdrive capability.

Personally, I think handwaving is often best left to the user to justify however they wish. There are so many things that can seem nonsensical until we know just a little bit more or apply another take on it.
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
ffutures
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.1

Post by ffutures »

I have no problems with things that make the game harder - I'm running Thargoid wars and two other Thargoid packs, also Interstellar Tweaks, which makes misjump problems more likely. The thing that worries me about your pack is that it doesn't just make the game more challenging, you could easily find yourself going around in circles trying to find a fix and never actually solve the problem, and if you're carrying cargo, passengers or parcels, or running a mission, you're probably going to lose out big time. With the usual game you always know that there's a high-tech system somewhere that can fix your ship, it may not be close but you can always get to it eventually. Even if there isn't time to stop for repairs you can still carry on with some damage, and try to avoid combat until you're out of time trouble. With any reduction in jump range there's a real chance you will never get there.

It helps a little that you aren't reducing the range of the NPC ships - although as you say you have to ignore the fact that they are now all more capable in that respect than the player ships - but I've sometimes waited an hour or more for a ship going the way I wanted, and to be frank it soon loses its excitement. If the problem is that the scanner is borked you have the additional handicap of not even knowing if the ship's headed the right way before you go through the wormhole.

Bottom line, I really don't think it's for me, and I sincerely hope the main game never goes in this direction, I think it's a complication that really isn't needed.
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.1

Post by Redspear »

I don't think any oxps are 'needed' (at least not universally), they're simply optional, a matter of what appeals to each player.

Most contracts (early ones at least) seem to allow plenty of time for the player to reach their destination. Whilst that can easily be reduced if running multiple contracts, it is there none the less. To most systems there will likely be a way of reaching them for the under equipped vessel.

Where this oxp really loses out is in compatibility with the ANA. At present it uses the excuse of arguing that 7ly jumps are still possible to all via 'hitch-hiking'. If I could make it vary from the expected 7ly limit then it would help enormously when running contracts and choosing which were suitable. Jumping through someone else's wormhole is only one strategy of course but as you say that can be frustrating.

A minor point here is that the oxp makes some non-player ships more capable, not all (consider that GH and WHS are two pieces of equipment that are not obvious when employed by another ship).

If the player carefully considers each contract then he/she should be fine (I was) but a more versatile ANA could make that both obvious and easy, as opposed to simply wise and time consuming. I think it leads back to that 7ly limit being hardcoded, I expect there's some clever way around it somewhere...

As for the oxp itself, it's v0.1 for a reason but it does work and I have had fun with it. It's there for anyone else who'd like to try, steal or be inspired to do it better, or even to go somewhere else with it. I expect that your concerns for the 'main game' are currently looming very small, on a very distant horizon...
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Redspear »

Recalled that Pleb posted some pics a while ago to highlight the effects of limiting the jump range.

If you scroll down just a little from that link, you can see that every system in galaxy 1 is accessible with a 6 light-year jump range (this may change your route to get there of course).

v0.2 is now available from the manager and includes a minor bug fix as well as a change to the way equipment bonuses work.
Each of the 3 bonus equipment items (energy unit, galactic hyperdrive and wormhole scanner) now grant a +1 light year bonus. In the presence of all three however, that bonus is restricted to +2.

This change does not increase jump ranges but does make it a little cheaper to increase them and is also a little more forgiving with regards to equipment damage.
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
ffutures
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by ffutures »

Have you tried checking how many of the cargo, mail and passenger contracts offered to beginning pilots (e.g. with 5 LY range) are actually do-able now? Suspect that a lot either won't be possible or will not be possible in the time available.
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Redspear »

ffutures wrote:Have you tried checking how many of the cargo, mail and passenger contracts offered to beginning pilots (e.g. with 5 LY range) are actually do-able now? Suspect that a lot either won't be possible or will not be possible in the time available.
No, but then that's not entirely simple.
  • Sometimes very few or no contracts are available to a pilot
  • Does 'do-able' for a beginner include navigating through anarchies and the like?
  • Can trips that start off as 'impossible' actually be done within the time limit?
For example, I started up a new game, traded down inefficiently and got myself this starting profile:

Image

Note that my max jump range is 4.5ly I have only 101 credits and my only equipment upgrades are either to make things quicker to test (torus to sun, fuel injectors, docking computers) or to make me a little less vulnerable to destruction between saves (escape pod, ecm). The multi-targeting system was just to whittle my credits down (an adder has a max of 1 missile).
If you traded down to an adder from a typical start you'd have a lot more cash to spend, wheras if you kept your cobra III then you'd have both a better jump range and a much larger cargo bay to help you make money faster.

So of the two contracts on offer to me I took the one that looked the most difficult:

Image

Cemave is right in the top-left corner with very few options to getting there. I thought this might make a good test. Although I suspected that it would be unreachable by 4.5 ly jumps I decided to fly blind and just head straight there, making regular use of the docking computers along the way (time inefficient method). Unbeknownst to me, jumps of up to 5.2 ly were required to complete the trip...

I headed towards my destination with limited trading possibilities along the way (many of my jumps seemed to be from one industrial system to another). I hit a block and had to head back, to try to make money elsewhere and save up for an energy unit (+1 ly range bonus). Remember, I started with only 101 credits and only a 5tc cargo bay (tweaked adder), so my profit to jump ratio is low.

So, I must have failed, right?

Nope...

Image

Notice the two green lollipops on the scanner and the compass set to Cemave station - I'm right outside.
So I did it with nearly a day to spare.

Image

Was I worried I might not make it? Yes
Did I have to travel through some dangerous systems? Yes
Did I have to sell my laser at one point? Yes :shock:
Was I 'killed' at any point or did I have to reload to recoup lost time/change strategy? No
Was it fun? Yes :)
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
ffutures
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1697
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:34 pm
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by ffutures »

The default time shown for contracts is for the most direct route, not the fastest. Round-about routes with small jumps are often faster than direct routes with long jumps. But that's not what I was asking.

What I wanted to know is if any of the contracts offered could not be done by any route at all, due to going outside the area your ship can actually reach with its current jump range, or require such an indirect route that they can't be done in the available time. Does it use the new default jump distance when it's generating the contracts you are offered, or does it still think you can jump up to 7 LY?
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Redspear »

That should be answered above. Perhaps I wasn't clear...

The ships max jump range was 4.5
The min jump range to complete the contract offered was 5.2 (you can see that it required more than 5ly from one of Pleb's charts that I linked to).
Therefore contracts offered may exceed the ships jump range (which does not currently influence contracts offered).

I managed to complete the contract by earning sufficient money along the way (sometimes heading in the opposite direction) to purchase an energy unit, boosting my jump range to 5.5ly.

So the contracts offered do not consider your current jump range.
In future, It would be nice if they did or (more likely perhaps) a 'min jump range required' label was added to each contract offer).
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
Norby
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 2577
Joined: Mon May 20, 2013 9:53 pm
Location: Budapest, Hungary (Mainly Agricultural Democracy, TL10)
Contact:

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Norby »

Hi Redspear!

After the 5ly post I think this addon would be better place in the Mechanics category. Imho an equipment package do non-marginal changes after bought, Mechanics is a warning that will change the whole game. Maybe help to install it too early.
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Redspear »

Good point Norby!

It does relate to equipment of course but it doesn't add any.
I think 'equipment' was closer to my original plans for the project but mechanics probably makes more sense now.
I should have some 'programming time' soon - I'll add it to the list.

Thanks.
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
User avatar
Redspear
---- E L I T E ----
---- E L I T E ----
Posts: 1627
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Redspear »

Updated to v0.3 and wiki page added: [EliteWiki] Hyperdrives

Restructuring of base hyperspace range according to a ships 'tech' (estimated according to 'inservice date' from elite manual or else from energy recharge rate).

A new feature is variable hyperspace countdown time according to a ship's size (based on a mix of cargo capacity and my own interpretation).

Hope it's of interest.
"With our thoughts, we make the world" :-) - - - Game too slow for you? Masslock Compensators - - - Trouble getting out of trouble? Indestructible Injectors
Post Reply