Hyperdrives v.0.3

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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:54 pm Updated to v0.3 and wiki page added: [EliteWiki] Hyperdrives

Restructuring of base hyperspace range according to a ships 'tech' (estimated according to 'inservice date' from elite manual or else from energy recharge rate).

A new feature is variable hyperspace countdown time according to a ship's size (based on a mix of cargo capacity and my own interpretation).

Hope it's of interest.
*Does the ANA have any effect on any of this?

Took an "easy start" from Tionisla and bumped up the dosh in the save file. Bought EEU only (not ANA/Wormhole noser/Galactic Hyperdrive), as well as Docking Computer, Fuel Scoops, Hud Selector & the 3 modules for the Vimana HUD: Combat/Ship/Travel. That was it.
Loooong list of .oxps. Using an AppleMac which ogles the semi-colons like a vulture.

*Just tried it out: Easy start from Tionisla: Kept getting messages that I needed to refuel.
*At Zaonce, Bryon Arn's Autorefuel took over - and I now had 7ly! Supposedly should have been 6ly with just the EEU.

Oh: and if I want to upgrade the Hyperdrive, how do I do it? Does it need another oxp?
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Cholmondely »

On another point: the .oxp difficulty rating on your wiki page is currently set to Level 2 (Indicates that a OXP alters Oolite or adds a few more opponents, but stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty. This indicator is suitable for missions for beginners and ships that have only a few aspects over Oolite's own range.)

I'd argue that it is between levels 2 & 3 on Svengali's rating, and that the orange rating of Smiv's Gameplay and Balance Indicator is more indicative and more helpful.

But I'm not an expert on this, and would like to hear other views!
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.2

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:50 pm *Does the ANA have any effect on any of this?
Don't think it does wityh the current version. Would have to take it apart to be sure.

It's one of those things on my to do list. I've been progressing well at recoding one oxp, hopefully for update soon but this onme is still in the queue.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:50 pm *Just tried it out: Easy start from Tionisla: Kept getting messages that I needed to refuel.
*At Zaonce, Bryon Arn's Autorefuel took over - and I now had 7ly! Supposedly should have been 6ly with just the EEU.
The 0.3 is in part an idicator of my confidence with this thing and there is little or no check for interference from other oxps. Hyperdrives and Autorefuel would appear to be in direct conflict from not only a scripting point of view but also in terms of play-style. Still apparent contradictions needn't always be so.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:50 pm Oh: and if I want to upgrade the Hyperdrive, how do I do it? Does it need another oxp?
You can only upgrade it with the EEU, GH and/or the WHS. I didn't want to further busy the equipment screen so I decided to add extra functionality to those pieces of equipment if not to the ship itself.
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:26 pm On another point: the .oxp difficulty rating on your wiki page is currently set to Level 2 (Indicates that a OXP alters Oolite or adds a few more opponents, but stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty. This indicator is suitable for missions for beginners and ships that have only a few aspects over Oolite's own range.)

I'd argue that it is between levels 2 & 3 on Svengali's rating, and that the orange rating of Smiv's Gameplay and Balance Indicator is more indicative and more helpful.

But I'm not an expert on this, and would like to hear other views!
You asked for it :wink:

Firstly, I personaly prefer svengali's level indicators over Smivs' colour chart for reasons I've mentioned here and even suggested my own 'system', if one truly be needed, here.

As for whether or not it should be 2 or 3 using svengali's ratings, let's have a closer look...
Level 1

Indicates that a OXP adds or alters aspects of the game a little bit, e.g. reduces the ambient lighting level or gives NPCs weapons from native Oolite.
This indicator is suitable for planetpacks and ship-OXPs that are adding e.g. rearlasers for NPCs.

Level 2

Indicates that a OXP alters Oolite or adds a few more opponents, but stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty.
This indicator is suitable for missions for beginners and ships that have only a few aspects over Oolite's own range.

Level 3

Indicates that a OXP adds a bit stronger opponents or alters Oolite in a way to make it harder for the player.
This indicator is suitable for above average rated commanders.
Given that level 1 includes rear-mounted lasers for NPC ships, level 2 might be a little more difficult than you suggest.
So the question perhaps comes down to whether or not Hyperdrives, "stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty."

I would argue that it does and here's why...

It doesn't necessarily make any combat or docking or other gameplay element or encounter any more difficult than before. It does however present, in particular, two difficulties to the player:
  • It can and likely will reduce hyperspace options
  • It will make you more likely to run out of fuel for your injectors
They're potentially quite significant but neither directly affect the 'beginner' who's playing as such.

Why? Because the beginner typically starts without witchdrive fuel injectors and because the Zaonce/Tionisle to Isinor route is likely still available and the Leesti to Diso route certainly is.

So given that level 2 suggests things that the beginner can cope with, and that most ships can get their range up to 7LY using this oxp (with at least some surviving a degree of equipment damage to keep it at that range), I think level 2 is about right.

Does that follow?


EDIT:

And on the subject of Smivs' system (which has since those earlier links been increasingly adopted) and systems generally...

Imagine an OXP 'supership', available to the player at a suitably super-high price, and that appears rarely (but devastatingly so) as a pirate.
Now try to rate the difficulty/balance of that oxp. Which colour should be assigned to it?

Makes the game much harder as when it shows up it's often devastating. As long as that's even close to being true then it doesn't need to show up often for it's effect to be marked.

Makes the game much easier as when the player can afford one they're outperforming nearly every other adversary by some distance.

So do you pick balanced? But the game is now anything but, the middle ground has been lost or at least erroded.

That's why I suggested a simply warning label for some oxps.
The wiki/boards can do the job of explaining the details.
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Cholmondely »

Redspear wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:12 pm
Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:26 pm On another point: the .oxp difficulty rating on your wiki page is currently set to Level 2 (Indicates that a OXP alters Oolite or adds a few more opponents, but stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty. This indicator is suitable for missions for beginners and ships that have only a few aspects over Oolite's own range.)

I'd argue that it is between levels 2 & 3 on Svengali's rating, and that the orange rating of Smiv's Gameplay and Balance Indicator is more indicative and more helpful.

But I'm not an expert on this, and would like to hear other views!
You asked for it :wink:

Firstly, I personaly prefer svengali's level indicators over Smivs' colour chart for reasons I've mentioned here and even suggested my own 'system', if one truly be needed, here.

As for whether or not it should be 2 or 3 using svengali's ratings, let's have a closer look...
Level 1

Indicates that a OXP adds or alters aspects of the game a little bit, e.g. reduces the ambient lighting level or gives NPCs weapons from native Oolite.
This indicator is suitable for planetpacks and ship-OXPs that are adding e.g. rearlasers for NPCs.

Level 2

Indicates that a OXP alters Oolite or adds a few more opponents, but stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty.
This indicator is suitable for missions for beginners and ships that have only a few aspects over Oolite's own range.

Level 3

Indicates that a OXP adds a bit stronger opponents or alters Oolite in a way to make it harder for the player.
This indicator is suitable for above average rated commanders.
Given that level 1 includes rear-mounted lasers for NPC ships, level 2 might be a little more difficult than you suggest.
So the question perhaps comes down to whether or not Hyperdrives, "stays generally within Oolite's own difficulty."

I would argue that it does and here's why...

It doesn't necessarily make any combat or docking or other gameplay element or encounter any more difficult than before. It does however present, in particular, two difficulties to the player:
  • It can and likely will reduce hyperspace options
  • It will make you more likely to run out of fuel for your injectors
They're potentially quite significant but neither directly affect the 'beginner' who's playing as such.

Why? Because the beginner typically starts without witchdrive fuel injectors and because the Zaonce/Tionisle to Isinor route is likely still available and the Leesti to Diso route certainly is.

So given that level 2 suggests things that the beginner can cope with, and that most ships can get their range up to 7LY using this oxp (with at least some surviving a degree of equipment damage to keep it at that range), I think level 2 is about right.

Does that follow?
Thank you for getting back to me. Yes, I did ask for it!

2 points
1) As far as I can ascertain with the .oxp loaded, a starting Cobra Mk III with the new reduced 5.0ly jump range can no longer jump the 5.6ly to Zaonce from Lave. Without your new paddling pool .oxp, the beginner is now restricted to the much more dangerous Diso-Leesti milk run. With the effects of local anarchic/feudal systems since v1.80, this would have utterly marmalised me when I was starting out last summer. Unless of course you amalgamate Paddling Pool.oxp with Hyperdrives as a freebie!

2) As far as I can ascertain, your issues with Smiv's system are purely to do with his unfortunate colour choice. But Smivs has a blanket "makes the game more difficult". This fits the effect of Hyperdrives in my mind.

Svengali's system doesn't - there is a big gap between 2 & 3 which Hyperdrives squarely falls into (in my humble estimation). I've not seen that reference to rear-mounted lasers anywhere, and have not thought that of 2 in that way in my reading of his wiki page. I can't imagine that a rank beginner would either.

We do both know that not everyone who starts playing Oolite is as hopeless at combat as I am. But for those sharing my boat, your .oxp is a potential game wrecker without something like paddling pool.oxp to mitigate the fatal loss of the the Zaonce/Tionisla/Isinor route. Do you really not think that there needs to be a stronger warning?
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Cholmondely »

This older post http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.ph ... 39#p274439 seems to have gotten overlooked:
• Gameplay Balance Indicator and Difficulty Indicators. ... The first (Smiv's) indicates the impact on play (equipment making the game easier/more difficult), the second (Svengali's) indicates the suggested Elite Rating needed to attempt the mission/defeat the ship etc.

Is my synopsis here correct?
So Smiv's is comparing the effect of adding the .oxp to the Vanilla game and seeing if it makes things tougher or not. Equipment, ships etc. Not so much missions.

Svengali seems to be thinking more in terms of ships/missions and what skill level you need to vanquish your new opponents. As far as I can make out the two ratings systems are doing slightly different things.

I wonder if the dearth of recent new missions accounts for the current lack of popularity of Svengali's system.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Is there any reason not to change Smiv's colour scheme? While I trust his fish-tank is suitably irradiated with benedictions and benefactions, we do not have to use his litmus paper colours. I presume it would be easy to change it to something you would be happier with (although green for neutral does make sense to me) - how about red/orange/light green/mid green/dark green?
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 pm 2 points
1) As far as I can ascertain with the .oxp loaded, a starting Cobra Mk III with the new reduced 5.0ly jump range can no longer jump the 5.6ly to Zaonce from Lave. Without your new paddling pool .oxp, the beginner is now restricted to the much more dangerous Diso-Leesti milk run. With the effects of local anarchic/feudal systems since v1.80, this would have utterly marmalised me when I was starting out last summer. Unless of course you amalgamate Paddling Pool.oxp with Hyperdrives as a freebie!

2) As far as I can ascertain, your issues with Smiv's system are purely to do with his unfortunate colour choice. But Smivs has a blanket "makes the game more difficult". This fits the effect of Hyperdrives in my mind.
1) Fair point. That was much less of an issue when Hyperdrives was first written I believe. However, from my limited experience Zaonce to Isinor can still get you jumped by 5+ pirates at a time so I'm not sure that changes the rating.

2) Not really. See the edit to my above post. You were perhaps typing your reply as I was editing.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 pm I've not seen that reference to rear-mounted lasers anywhere, and have not thought that of 2 in that way in my reading of his wiki page. I can't imagine that a rank beginner would either.
You must have missed it in your wiki trawlings :)
Just read level 1 again, it's right there

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:44 pm We do both know that not everyone who starts playing Oolite is as hopeless at combat as I am. But for those sharing my boat, your .oxp is a potential game wrecker without something like paddling pool.oxp to mitigate the fatal loss of the the Zaonce/Tionisla/Isinor route. Do you really not think that there needs to be a stronger warning?
I was simply using what I considered to be the best of the two 'popular' systems (rather than further muddy the waters with a third) and trying to use it according to it's own criteria in order that it be more useful than subjective. Under 'my' system this would be one of the oxps with a warning label to suggest users read carefully and not just install on a whim.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 pm This older post http://www.aegidian.org/bb/viewtopic.ph ... 39#p274439 seems to have gotten overlooked:
It's not easy for many of us to match your prolific posting :)

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 pm So Smiv's is comparing the effect of adding the .oxp to the Vanilla game and seeing if it makes things tougher or not. Equipment, ships etc. Not so much missions.

Svengali seems to be thinking more in terms of ships/missions and what skill level you need to vanquish your new opponents. As far as I can make out the two ratings systems are doing slightly different things.

I wonder if the dearth of recent new missions accounts for the current lack of popularity of Svengali's system.
As I explained in my edit to my earlier post, Smivs' system is problematic in other ways.

Svengali's 0 - 6 system marks degree of change albeit mostly with regards to things becomming more difficult. Although level 0 would appear to include the possibility for things becoming easier. By attempting to clarify direction of change however, Smivs' system unintentionally adds complexity that it cannot adequately depict in my estimation. It recognises the limitations of svengali's system and then opens another can of worms. From experience, this is very easily done when trying to redesign things.

Svengali uses missions (and ships) as examples, for some rather than all of the levels. Also if you notice the use of the elite ranks it's really a measure of player experience rather than difficulty as such (higher rating usually means better equipped ship) which in many ways makes for a better system... Try the weird stuff later, just get used to the basic game first and then see what you'd like to change.

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:52 pm Is there any reason not to change Smiv's colour scheme? While I trust his fish-tank is suitably irradiated with benedictions and benefactions, we do not have to use his litmus paper colours. I presume it would be easy to change it to something you would be happier with (although green for neutral does make sense to me) - how about red/orange/light green/mid green/dark green?
Consensus for one.

From memory he used the colour spectrum which is pretty logical, so it's hard to argue with choice if you're sticking to his model. My (much) earlier point re traffic lights and the like was simply that his colours only work with his bi-directional model and that such a model has difficulty in accurately representing oxps.

Another example. An oxp that adds a really tough mission but rewards you (upon completion) with slightly tougher shields. More difficult, right? Except that once completed it never happens again and the game is now slightly easier.

To my mind Smivs' system suggests it can categorise such occurrances and yet fails to do so.
He's not here to defend his ideas however so (just in case it isn't already obvious) this is strictly my, doubtlessly imperfect, reading of things.
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Cholmondely »

I'm interested in the effects of this on the geography of the galaxies - the increase in islands & peninsulae.

Looking at the various maps (F6,F6F6 & Phkb's GalCop Galactic Registry) I can't see that your modifications to the hyperdrive jump are taken into account when maps with possible jumps are shown - all the old jumps of 7ly are shown together with the reduced number of possible jumps.

Am I correct or am I missing something?

Is there any way of seeing what the new reduced 5ly jump galaxy looks like?
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Re: Hyperdrives v.0.3

Post by Redspear »

Cholmondely wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:11 pm Is there any way of seeing what the new reduced 5ly jump galaxy looks like?
From up thread: see this post.

I did look into making route planning easier but I think my alterations were source code based at the time rather tham oxp 'solutions'.
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